Confused to start with!!

[Jack757]

Where to start!!!!

I have an 1/2 acre serviced plot with a bungalow to be demolished. Found an Architect that I seem happy with, however..... I'm so confused and we are not really off the starting blocks yet.

We were adamant we wanted a traditional block/brick house. 4 bedroom about 220/240sqm with a useable but not habitable loft, Mid spec, budget approx 500k.

Following a recent house builders exhibition, we are now thinking is a wood framed house (like Potton), oak framed or SIP better.  Previously having a new build I hated the paper thin walls hence why we like our current old brick built house but for what I'm led to believe self builds are not like this and the alternatives may be a better way to go?  

Advice please. What are people's opinions? We seem to take one step forward and ten back..

SIP look to be future proof but then I worry about reading of a 65year timescale on these and this house I potentially want to live in for the next 30 years and pass to my children being no good further down the line. 

Oak framed look lovely but seen to incorporate an awful lot of glass to most of them which we do not want and are we paying the extra just for the 'oak effect'.

Potton and the likes of do not fill me with confidence and reviews do not seem that great.

Brick/block.... Is it not worthwhile anymore, we were looking at solar panels with battery, underfloor heating, air pump etc but would this lose too much heat.

Since originally thinking of this project pre Covid prices have also considerably increased and is this size property doable still on our budget? 

Help a girl out please

[Russell griffiths]

Have you got planning approved yet, I would start with that, find out how big you can go, then start looking at how. 

Then how much will you do yourself. 

And how much money do you have now. A timberframe is a lot of up front cost straight to the manufacturers, so if you are self funding you will need a big chunk straight away to start the ball rolling. 

Brick n block you can feed in money more steadily as the brickies need it. 

[Temp]

A full oak frame looks great could be quite expensive. It can also be problematic sealing the infill panels as they have to cope with shrinkage and movement of the oak. All possible but do your research into the issues. It's possible to build a brick and block house with lots of internal oak details that aren't structural. 

 

I recommend making a scrap book with photos of houses and house details that you like and use that to help brief your Architect. Your Architect will need to try and find a compromise between what you like, what you can afford and what the planners will allow on your site. 

 

Its worth thinking about your attitude to risk. For example how critical is it to remain within the budget? Is it an absolute hard limit or a softer target? Make sure your Architect understands this. Its too easy for them to get carried away and design something you cant afford to build.

 

Architects, Quantity Surveyors, Structural Engineers fees can add quite a lot to the bill. Typically they like to charge a % of the build cost. I would avoid this if possible. Negotiate a flat fee. Otherwise it means they have less incentive to reduce costs. If you get to the end of your build and decide to splurge on an expensive kitchen the Architect might be in for say 10% of the extra cost. 

 

Think carefully if you really need the Architect to be involved at all stages of the project or just for the design phase? Perhaps just until you have Building Control Approval? Depends how comfortable you are managing Builders and projects in general.  

[Jack757]

@Temp Thank you for your comments. I am not particularly fussed about the oak frame it was just another method brought into the equation which we hadn't considered and I don't think the extra cost and problems will warrant for what we want.

We have started with photos etc for the Architect, we are governed by the style and size what is in the road and I have been reviewing lately what has and hasn't been allowed.

The Architect has a fixed fee price which I was only hoping to use initially for plans and through approval, possibly for tender paperwork. Each we can do stage by stage.  I have plenty of free time on my hands and am in no major rush.   

 

@Russell griffiths Thank you for your comments. We are not at planning approval yet. We are well under what would be allowed on the size of the plot and by other new builds, our small 4 bedroom will be tiny in comparison to the many large 6 bedrooms standing in the street. We just have a fair few restrictions on height, distance from front to road and property style. 

We will have the majority of the 500k budget to pay when needed whether in advance or as we go, therefore paying for a timber frame would not be an issue just whether it is the best option. We could always leave driveways, gates, patios and internal finishing until later if need be.

[SteamyTea]

8 hours ago, Jack757 said:

We could always leave driveways, gates, patios and internal finishing until later if need be.

There are VAT implications leaving it too late.

[joe90]

Well I went brick and block but with loads of insulation and have not regretted it. @nod said somewhere on this forum that brick and block was still cheaper than timber frame. I think you need to design your house then see what build method best suites that design.  Don’t let the architect get carried away with what HE wants.

[Dan1983]

We went brick and block, no issues downstairs but as you mentioned, upstairs is stud wall etc so still get that hollow sound even with plenty of insulation.

 

Neighbour used Potton and has had no issues but I’m always sceptical about a wood frame in this climate.

Asked our architect about wood frame and was told they just save time and go up quick vs full brick and block 

[SteamyTea]

35 minutes ago, Dan1983 said:

I’m always sceptical about a wood frame in this climate.

Why, our climate is very benign compared to Canada.

Like everything, if it is done right there will not be a problem.

[Dan1983]

That’s the concern but guess you need to do plenty of research before you chose someone 

[Roundtuit]

Ours is timber frame with a brick outer skin (to get a traditional look).  There's nothing I don't like about it as a system; quick to go up, easy to spec re: insulation levels, and easy to make airtight. If I was doing it again, I think I'd lean towards ICF though, as:

a) I'd suggest the average self-builder isn't best placed to capitalise on the speed of construction. You need to have your roofers, brickies and windows lined-up with no timescale f-ups to get any significant benefit I think.

b) a brick outer skin is an expensive rain-screen, although I would argue it adds considerably to decrement delay.

[Thorfun]

if I was building again I wouldn't do the insulating myself as it's a ball ache and very slow! I'd pay the extra and go for something like this:

 

https://www.mbctimberframe.co.uk/passive-house/passive-house-technical-detail/

 

other companies offer similar but blown cellulose would be my choice if I could have my time over again.

 

I'm really really really sick of insulating now. 😂

[SteamyTea]

18 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

blown cellulose would be my choice if I could have my time over again.

It is a good insulation material, ticks a lot of 'sustainable' boxes as well.

The two really big advantages are its sound deadening properties and thermal inertia (sometimes referred to as decrement delay, but if people call it thermal mass, they don't know what they are talking about).

Thermal inertia is generally better in materials that have a carbon/hydrogen or an oxygen/hydrogen bond.  Get both of those bonds in timber and a lot of organic materials.

You can't trick nature.

[Iceverge]

Masonry here. 

 

It's cheaper but hard to detail to high performance levels. 

 

Robust design and an excellent builder will be needed. 

 

400mm+ Blown cellulose in the attic however. I'm a fan. TF next time. 

[SarahG]

You are in a similar situation to us, we are a bit further along though. We have planning permission to demolish our bungalow and replace with a 210sqm house. We decided to go brick and block as this still seems to be the most cost effective. Someone in my area built an oak framed house and said it was about three times the cost as standard masonry, not sure how true that is for all oak frames. We have UFH downstairs, ASHP. We are just going through building regs now. We are trying to keep costs down as much as we can and ideally would like to bring it in somewhere under £2800per sqm. Where abouts in the country are you? 
We are hoping to get a single contractor to get us to first fix and then we will project manage the rest.

This forum has been a huge help to me trying to navigate the process so far. Everything takes so long I just hope we can start sometime next year!

[nod]

21 hours ago, joe90 said:

Well I went brick and block but with loads of insulation and have not regretted it. @nod said somewhere on this forum that brick and block was still cheaper than timber frame. I think you need to design your house then see what build method best suites that design.  Don’t let the architect get carried away with what HE wants.

I totally agree 

Architechts design with no regard to cost Great at spending Your money 

[SarahG]

You also don’t necessarily need to decide at this stage between brick and block and timber frame. We have only made the decision now before building regs drawings. 

[CharlieKLP]

If you want to use timber frame with Potton, use your own architect and ask for ‘frame only’ as it’s cheaper, no need to pay two design fees. You will get a kingspan insulated frame which I consider the best value for money.

 

I don’t adhere to the ‘oh architects spend your money and ruin your design with their input’ slander, simply not true. 
 

a good architect will improve your design and help you avoid costly build errors. People who say this are know it all’s.
 

@SarahG £2800per sqm is actually a very high build cost. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by CharlieKLP

[PeterW]

13 minutes ago, CharlieKLP said:

You will get a kingspan insulated frame which I consider the best value for money.

Ever seen one constructed ..?? You may have a different opinion when you see the quality level. 

[SteamyTea]

15 minutes ago, CharlieKLP said:

a good architect will improve your design and help you avoid costly build errors. People who say this are know it all’s.

Says our pet architect, who thinks that everyone that designs their own home is wrong.

 

[CharlieKLP]

9 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Ever seen one constructed ..?? You may have a different opinion when you see the quality level. 

Yes I see loads of them. Did you get a bad one or something? 

[CharlieKLP]

7 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Says our pet architect, who thinks that everyone that designs their own home is wrong.

 

I need some fresh newspaper in my cage when you have a moment btw

[SarahG]

@CharlieKLPour architect said we would be looking at £3000-£3500 at the moment. He seemed to think £2500 would be ok to get us to first fix. We are in London though so prices are high. It’s a pretty simple build, standard rectangle, simple plot, brick and block, slate roof, timber sashes. Nothing really high end or fancy. I would have hoped £2800 would do us to second fix. Just waiting for drawings so we can start getting some proper quotes in. 

[Jack757]

Thanks for all your additional comments, still food for thought as think we will go ahead with our architect designing and make the decision further along the line... I'm still liking the brick/block construction route currently but lots of ideas to look at first.

 

@SarahG Thanks for your comments... Great to hear of a similar path. We are a little stuck at moment as are applying for permitted development to put a large workshop up which we can granted and started before going ahead with plans.  We are in no rush currently, just getting fed up with paying the bills on a second property whilst we decide.  Hoping ours isn't that much per sqm. We are in Essex but been given a figure of approx £2k sqm, which is still considerably more than we started considering this pre covid! I was also hoping to get a builder to do all the first part and then take over project managing and get separate people in after that to save some costs.  Look forward to seeing your updates as sounds very similar to us. 

[Kelvin]

We were going down the architect designed route originally but two things put me off. The first thing one of them said was we can design you an award winning house. What I heard was we can add an award winning house to our portfolio. We didn’t want an award winning house.
 

The second completely ignored our design brief proposing an expensive split level design. I asked if he used someone else’s brief.
 

I get architects want to do challenging stuff with split levels, cantilevered overhangs and complex roofs. Designing open plan square boxes isn’t worth the 7 years studying i guess. 
 

In the end we went to one of the shed companies. Not exactly architecturally adventurous but we wanted simple and clean that fitted in to the landscape so that when done it would like like it’s always been there. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Kelvin

[PeterW]

45 minutes ago, CharlieKLP said:

Yes I see loads of them. Did you get a bad one or something? 

Yes a number - and the standard insulation levels are bare minimum to meet BRegs. Also seen them fail air tests (this was down to approved installer issues) and they have (or had) a standard air tightness target of 5 ACH which is woeful - if you wanted anything more then it had to be paid for.

 

Have you personally asked for a Condensation Risk Analysis on any of your designs ..?? And have they provided it other than the standard design elements ..??