Planning feedback

[Omi]

Hello everyone,

 

We're looking to build in the Scottish Borders and submitted planning for the following design:

 

The planning officer has come with a comment that it's too "suburban" and the that the gable on the front elevation is too wide and overbearing -- without giving any exact reasons why.

 

There has not been any comments/objections from the neighbours and these are some of the houses in a nearby village (5 minutes drive from the proposed site):

 

 

We've pointed these out to the planning officer on an off-the-record phone call but he does not seem to be relenting. Given the lack of any objections from the neighbours or specific reasons from the planner, this really seems like the objection is purely on the basis of the design not agreeing with the officer's personal taste.

 

We're now waiting on a formal response from the planning office but wondered if the community here had any views/advice/comments?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

 

 

[recoveringbuilder]

When we built our last house we wanted a gable front and they wouldn’t allow it despite the house next door having two! We then changed and tried to get a bay window.. no chance despite there being two within 500m of us. You are right I think it depends on the planners personal preference.

[nod]

For what it’s worth I think your design would look great in any setting Even suburban ?

Its certainly not so different to the above pictures 

It looks like an upscaled version of the bottom right 

 

Without any real objections it seems unlikely that HIS opinion will count for much in the end 

[ProDave]

I think you have good grounds for appeal there if it is rejected.  Make it clear to your planners that is the route you will take but first give them an opportunity to suggest just what would make it acceptable to them.

[DevilDamo]

I agree with Planning in some way as there does appear to be quite a lot of wall compared to windows/doors. Can anything be done there, which may comprise increasing the number of or sizes of the windows, therefore reducing the amount of wall and not majorly impacting the internal layout or flow?

 

Given the above examples, I personally feel an Appeal Inspector would struggle to agree with the LPA and should therefore allow the Appeal. Maybe let the current application run its course and if refused, Appeal. At the same time, submit a revised application taking into the comments I made above and which should ‘hopefully’ provide you with a back up option should your desirable scheme be dismissed at Appeal.

[Temp]

What are the houses like either side of the plot? A 5  min drive is a log way in architecture terms.

 

Do you know if it will go to committee? If so make sure they get the photos of other houses. Not sure what happens at the moment with covid but in my day you were allowed to speak at the meeting. 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Temp

[Me61ok]

This is definitely a planner's own personal preference. The proposed elevations are a good blend of those nearby and are hardly "suburban" in the sense of what we see repeated throughout Uk suburbs.

[the_r_sole]

The proportions of your elevation is a bit all over the place, look at the examples in the photos and you can see that they are better set out and look different to your proposals...

[Bonner]

It depends on the sensitivity of the area (conservation area, AONB, etc.) and the local vernacular. Your front gable is significantly wider than all the others so I can see where they are coming from. Having said that, if it is not in a sensitive area, they won’t have legitimate ground to refuse. I recently had some challenges from the planners about my design. After a lot of sleepless nights, I decided not to compromise and the planners immediately relented.

[Mr Punter]

If the front gable was 1.5 - 2 metres narrower the eaves could be the same height as the rest of the house.  Maybe you could increase the depth to make up for the loss of floor space if it does not involve too much of a compromise for you.

[the_r_sole]

Would be helpful if you could post the plan to help the discussion but is your entrance recessed? 

If you look at the examples you've posted, the eaves height of the protruding gables is either matching the main house or slightly above it,  never below it - that's making your elevation look wrong.

Then the width of it is too much of the length of that elevation, and the openings on all the others are for the most part symmetrical whereas yours has a completely random placement if openings, it may be that the plan is generating the elevations but I think more care could be taking in making it look right.

Have you not got a designer on board to look at the aesthetics?

[Big Jimbo]

To me it sounds like you have a dick head of a planner. There are a lot of them about. I think yours looks better than some of those you have pictured.

[Jilly]

We had to submit slightly different designs during the planning process, my architect had a good relationship with the planning officer which definitely helped. They like to have images to react to, so having a few compromises up your sleeve would be helpful. 

[Ferdinand]

As with most others, I think a little jiggery-pokery and you could be there.

 

I would suggest making your pipes symmetrical, aligning the gable-bottom with the roof, if poss putting that flue pipe behind the ridge, and perhaps bringing the door arch inside the frame of the quoins (= the larger blocks on the corners of the walls).

 

But see if you can tease out of the PO what are his suggestions.

F

[Omi]

Hi everyone,

 

Thank you for the feedback thus far. I can see that the design is quite polarising!

• The only real feedback has been that the gable is too wide so I assume the LPA is looking for us to make it narrower somehow. Trouble is that the elevations are dictated by the internal layout/flow which in turn is driven by the features of the site.
• There's farmland to the right of the plot and row of stone cottages to the left. It's also farmland across the road. The house to the rear is finished in off-white render.
• We don't believe it's going to go to committee at this time.
• The plot is not in a sensitive/conservation area.
• We're working with the timber frame supplier on the design and they are also the ones dealing with the planning office. They have had a good relationship with the officer for the region but he retired/moved on some time ago and now we have a junior, "assistant planning officer" looking at the applications. So we're likely dealing with someone with little experience here.

Here are the internal plans if it helps:

 

 

 

Thanks!

Edited January 24, 2021 by Omi

[the_r_sole]

The first thing you should consider, is that the planning officer - no matter what stage of their career they are at - have a legitimate issue with your design. The job now is to address their concerns.

It makes sense that the design is put together by the builders rather than someone who is designing it to look pretty. 

My thought would be to make the protrucing gable the width of the Living room on the ground floor and put a lean to over roof over the entrance as a single storey thing - it might need a bit of tweaking for bedroom 2 but it would be much better for it.

I'm not going to comment on the rest of the plan but I think you'd struggle to convince a planner that the house elevations are only a function of the site features

[Ferdinand]

Hi

 

Where's North?

And the best views?

And the main part of your garden?

 

Cheers

 

F

 

[Omi]

Hi,

 

Reducing the gable to the living room section is our line of thinking for the fallback position but it would likely mean losing the arched entrance which we feel adds quite a bit of character to the build (reflects a common local feature). Will be discussing this option with the designer to see what we can come up with.

 

As for the compass points, North is up, East is to the right. Main bit of open grounds is to the East (also the best views). Hence the big gable windows on the master bedroom and doors out from the dining room on the ground floor.

 

Thanks.

[WWilts]

Not competent to comment on design or your preferences. 

But our experience with a "difficult" planner was that refusal & appeal worked well. Planners are only trying to guess what an Appeals Inspector might find, and your guess (or your designer's guess) can be as well informed as the Planner's.

Appeals Inspectors are only trying to follow case precedents, especially from the courts.

Planning consultants sometimes agree to hourly fees. Between your designers and a planning consultant with a high success rate at appeal, you can probably prevail at this application stage with something you really like. If not, refusal and appeal need not hold any terrors. Even the prospect of an appeal sometimes encourages the Planner to take a more benign view.

If it goes to refusal and appeal, then indeed submitting a backup scheme more in line with the Planner's preference could work.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by WWilts

[the_r_sole]

1 hour ago, Omi said:

Hi,

 

Reducing the gable to the living room section is our line of thinking for the fallback position but it would likely mean losing the arched entrance which we feel adds quite a bit of character to the build (reflects a common local feature). Will be discussing this option with the designer to see what we can come up with.

 

As for the compass points, North is up, East is to the right. Main bit of open grounds is to the East (also the best views). Hence the big gable windows on the master bedroom and doors out from the dining room on the ground floor.

 

Thanks.

 

tbh - I don't think it adds much/anything to the composition of the elevation, it's interesting that you say it's a common local feature, yet all the examples posted don't have the feature, so is it a feature on buildings which don't have the gable protruding at the front?  The position and detail of the arch is very jarring, from the plan I can see why it's placed there but from the elevation it's not helping anything

I know others are saying to take a refusal and then appeal it but I'd say spend an hour or two revising the elevation to get your permission, then you'll have a house to build and a better looking one at that

[PeterW]

3 hours ago, Omi said:

Hi everyone,

 

Thank you for the feedback thus far. I can see that the design is quite polarising!

• The only real feedback has been that the gable is too wide so I assume the LPA is looking for us to make it narrower somehow. Trouble is that the elevations are dictated by the internal layout/flow which in turn is driven by the features of the site.
• There's farmland to the right of the plot and row of stone cottages to the left. It's also farmland across the road. The house to the rear is finished in off-white render.
• We don't believe it's going to go to committee at this time.
• The plot is not in a sensitive/conservation area.
• We're working with the timber frame supplier on the design and they are also the ones dealing with the planning office. They have had a good relationship with the officer for the region but he retired/moved on some time ago and now we have a junior, "assistant planning officer" looking at the applications. So we're likely dealing with someone with little experience here.

Here are the internal plans if it helps:

 

 

 

Thanks!

not sure what is driving some of your decisions but either your designer has shares in a door company, or they like lots of little compartments ..!!

 

Quick comments :

- is Bed 3 a guest bed ..? Or is it a permanent room..? You don’t need accessible shower provision if you start by making that one accessible from the outset. 
- utility through pantry means it is at room temperature or worse, may be heated if you are having uFH. Plant is huge - what do you think you are having in there...?

- Study is tiny, nearly looks an afterthought. Draw it out on the floor and then take off 650mm all round for the desk etc and it will feel like a cell. You won’t be able to turn a decent chair round, never mind move it back. Steal 600mm from the dining room and you’ll get much better proportions. 
- Stove - just inside a door..? And where will the TV go..? Why not make it freestanding on the end of the dining / lounge divider wall. Also loses it out of Bed2 where it looks an afterthought. 
Bed 4 has no wardrobes and nowhere to put them easily. Steal the ends off the linen and store, use it for built in wardrobes. 
Main bathroom shower is tiny - layout is odd in there, move the door to the right and put the loo in the alcove and you have loads of room then for a decent shower plus bath. 
if Bed1 has the view to the east, why is the bed facing the wall ..?? Put a semi height stud 1m from the door and then face the bed to the windows - if you’ve got a view you may as well be able to see it ..!

 

 

 

 

[Omi]

@the_r_sole - the houses shown earlier were to establish a point about the gable. There are others in the area (same postcode in fact) with the arch feature (though no protruding gable):

 

   

 

 

@PeterW - thanks for the very helpful comments, gives us lots to think about!

 

 

[Redoctober]

@the_r_sole - @Omi Here is another "local" house -  with alcove gable type frontage. Good luck with resolving the issues raised.

 

[PeterW]

@Omi I think the pantry area is a good idea but would think how you would use it. If you lost the wall on the north side you could have a decent run of cabinets with some real variation and end it with full height fridge and freezer or American FF. Opposite side against the WC wall could have your dishwasher and a small rinse sink - ideal for when you're having a nice meal and don't want all the stuff on display when you've been cooking. If you do put the fridge etc there, put a small under counter one in your island too for the things you need when cooking such as milk, butter, wine, beer, tonic, etc...

[the_r_sole]

see, you've answered your own question, just because there's houses with a gable feature and some other ones with arches, they're very different styles of house, just jamming features in makes your elevation look clumsy. You could happily lose the arch and make your design more compatible with the local area - you really need someone with a design eye to look at the elevation, using the kit manufacturer to design is resulting in an efficient timber kit at the compromise of lots or areas imo