Pros and Cons of PH

[Mako]

Thank you for accepting us into your community, we are in a process of planning a passive house home, I’m looking to find some direction here. Many things on the web, but I like to understand, what is important in designing such a build and 

what are members  experiences following a completion. What would they do differently next time.

Help required...

not sure how to work this forum, so please navigate me if I need to post my questions in another section. Thank you M

[nod]

Welcome 

 

We have built traditional So not passive But we have used plenty of insulation throughout 

We have UFH but hardly ever use it 

The house is 5 bed over two floors 

282m2

 

We are finalizing land purchase for our 2-3 

So things we would have done differently are on our mind 

Timber Frame is something I’ve considered this time 
Over the past 35 years I’ve worked on both 

While they don’t feel as solid as traditional and are more prone to cracking Definitely more expensive 

They are quicker More convenient 

and much better to add a high level of insulation 

 

Things we would do different this time 

I won’t bother with heating in the bedrooms 

I will install sliders rather than bifolds 

Bifolds look great and are great to open up in summer

But sliders would be used more just to leave open slightly 

My wife would Like a laundry shoot on this one ?

Only two of us
We built a d garage for us and the neighbour This time we will build a treble with a third as a workshop for my wife Tge rest can remain a junk store for me 

I built a nice big utility / plant room 

In hein sight we should have made this 50% larger 

 

I’m sure we will find a few more 

[ToughButterCup]

45 minutes ago, Mako said:

...

but I like to understand, what is important in designing such a build

...

 

The importance of the fabric first design appoach. It's the first and last consideration, everything else depends on it. 

For me, discovering fabric first was a bit like my introduction to wine: first, sweet and white, lots of it  - now the decision is far more nuanced - far drier, much more expensive, and just one or two glasses at any one time.

[joe90]

30 minutes ago, nod said:

We have built traditional So not passive

that said, building traditional (brick and block I guess) can be passive. We built brick and block and although not certified as passive with the addition of PV and a few minor changes it could well be.“ Fabric first” is the mantra, loads of insulation, attention to small details (that the major house builders mostly fall down on) orientation etc. Not sure what I would do differently if I did it again (unlikely due to age and health issues) apart from a few very minor bits. I really enjoy living in my “cottage” that costs very little to run.

[ProDave]

Like many on here I chose to build to just about Passive house levels of insulation and air tightness but I chose not to have the house certified as such.

 

The result is a house with low energy bills that is comfortable inside all the time with no extremes of temperature etc.

[Mako]

6 hours ago, ProDave said:

Like many on here I chose to build to just about Passive house levels of insulation and air tightness but I chose not to have the house certified as such.

 

The result is a house with low energy bills that is comfortable inside all the time with no extremes of temperature etc.

Thank you for your input, what did you use for building your home to deliver the results we are after?

[Mako]

6 hours ago, joe90 said:

that said, building traditional (brick and block I guess) can be passive. We built brick and block and although not certified as passive with the addition of PV and a few minor changes it could well be.“ Fabric first” is the mantra, loads of insulation, attention to small details (that the major house builders mostly fall down on) orientation etc. Not sure what I would do differently if I did it again (unlikely due to age and health issues) apart from a few very minor bits. I really enjoy living in my “cottage” that costs very little to run.

Hi, how did you manage to get the air tightness with brick and block? Thank you for your input 

[Mako]

6 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

The importance of the fabric first design appoach. It's the first and last consideration, everything else depends on it. 

For me, discovering fabric first was a bit like my introduction to wine: first, sweet and white, lots of it  - now the decision is far more nuanced - far drier, much more expensive, and just one or two glasses at any one time.

Thank you, what fabric did you consider to be the best addressing all the insulation, airtightness, soundproofing etc?

at the moment thinking if we should do basement as well or avoid.

would we use the same or different?

[Mako]

7 hours ago, nod said:

Welcome 

 

We have built traditional So not passive But we have used plenty of insulation throughout 

We have UFH but hardly ever use it 

The house is 5 bed over two floors 

282m2

 

We are finalizing land purchase for our 2-3 

So things we would have done differently are on our mind 

Timber Frame is something I’ve considered this time 
Over the past 35 years I’ve worked on both 

While they don’t feel as solid as traditional and are more prone to cracking Definitely more expensive 

They are quicker More convenient 

and much better to add a high level of insulation 

 

Things we would do different this time 

I won’t bother with heating in the bedrooms 

I will install sliders rather than bifolds 

Bifolds look great and are great to open up in summer

But sliders would be used more just to leave open slightly 

My wife would Like a laundry shoot on this one ?

Only two of us
We built a d garage for us and the neighbour This time we will build a treble with a third as a workshop for my wife Tge rest can remain a junk store for me 

I built a nice big utility / plant room 

In hein sight we should have made this 50% larger 

 

I’m sure we will find a few more 

Thank you for your input, sounds like you are enjoying the building process. 
having build the traditional, do you believe the Timberframe is the better way? 
have you ever done a basement? 
what type of  timberframe are you thinking? I heard they are not as soundproof as the traditional brick and block, is that right? I see your point in the sliding doors. Thank you

[Vijay]

7 hours ago, ProDave said:

Like many on here I chose to build to just about Passive house levels of insulation and air tightness but I chose not to have the house certified as such.

 

The result is a house with low energy bills that is comfortable inside all the time with no extremes of temperature etc.

 

And saved a load of money by not having someone telling you what you already know and giving you a certificate for it

[Thorfun]

@Mako sounds like you need to spend some time reading the blogs of various members here. plenty of Passivhaus examples there. will give you a great understanding of what is involved and how the folks who keep the blogs approached every area of their build. 

 

I have found the information invaluable and often refer back to them when researching the various areas of a self-build.

[tonyshouse]

There are alternatives to PH and current building regs awe woefully poor. I like MINERGIE — minimum energy and happily live without A heating system, use about 1/3 of PH energy use limit.

 

think before you build- energy will only get more expensive. 

[joe90]

3 hours ago, Mako said:

Hi, how did you manage to get the air tightness with brick and block? Thank you for your input 

Parge coat on blockwork, solid render then plaster coat (no dot and dab). End wraps on timbers within internal walls and plastered onto. Silicone on cables brought into electrical back boxes.

[scottishjohn]

4 hours ago, Mako said:

at the moment thinking if we should do basement as well or avoid.

advantages of basement -same roof size for more house space - ideal place for all services -so house is all living space

maybe important if plot size is small

 If basement is definite ,then ICF construction for house or at least basement should be top of your list 

how soggy  and soil type of your plot will make a big difference on price or sensibility of having a basement at a reasonable cost -are you on a flood plane? 

then maybe  garage  and services under main house --like a basement lifting house away from flood risk 

 so what i am saying is you should not make construction type or design  choice until you know where  you are building - all systems can make a house any shape you want

and of course what is your budget  and is it your forever home

that could decide choices  alot 

If not forever home then you might want to think about if you  could  sell it when its built for more than it cost you  in a couple of years time 

 I would not underestimate the effect of corvid on house prices in cities  in the next few years.

If I  was young i would not be starting a house build now  unless I could do it mostly myself --the house price bubble I fear may be popped if we get a long extension of this pandepmic -in cities at least.

 here  the house prices are jumping up -due to townies wanting to move out-especially houses /renovation projects  and plots those with land  ,just in the last few weeks -yes they are lower than cities even now --but is this the start of a big trend ?

I do not know - no one does --so i would not pay over the odds just to get a plot in a city --wait and keep saving 

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

5 hours ago, Mako said:

I heard they are not as soundproof as the traditional brick and block, is that right?

Categorically, no! The MBC timber-frame offerings that I have been around are graveyard quiet ( the ones with 300mm of Warmcell blown in to the walls and 400mm of Warmcell blown into the roofs, to be precise.

Don't confuse sound created by walking through a property and hearing noise from outside, they are two very different things.

[Onoff]

6 hours ago, Mako said:

Thank you for your input, sounds like you are enjoying the building process. 
having build the traditional, do you believe the Timberframe is the better way? 
have you ever done a basement? 
what type of  timberframe are you thinking? I heard they are not as soundproof as the traditional brick and block, is that right? I see your point in the sliding doors. Thank you

 

Icynene filled walls are super quiet too.

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

Categorically, no! The MBC timber-frame offerings that I have been around are graveyard quiet ( the ones with 300mm of Warmcell blown in to the walls and 400mm of Warmcell blown into the roofs, to be precise.

Don't confuse sound created by walking through a property and hearing noise from outside, they are two very different things.

I can confirm that a Passive house or house that has insulation is very quiet to live in. We also have triple glazing which adds to the quietness

[Alexphd1]

What ever build method you choose, the devil is in the detail to hit PH or better. 

 

I dont want to knock PH but it is just a certificate that your house has met a certain level. One of the big reasons that put us of PH was the small details of PH certified equipment ie mvhr windows etc which costs a premium. 

 

I wouldn't choose to build a basement by choice but we are building a 3 sided basement in the next build as it fits in better with the site. It is easier & cheap to build above ground. 

 

It's pretty easy & cheap to add insulation to hit decent u values, usually just make the wall/floors and roof thicker. Again it's easy to spec up windows for better performance. All this is pointless if your house leaks air out so now you are looking at sealing everything....  now your house NEEDs a mvhr system.... this is the fabric first approach that's mentioned a lot on here.  Before you know it your house it preforming better than PH house certified house without all the red tape. 

There is a few other things to pay attention to ie overheating etc but it's not rocket science.

 

High levels of soundproof from internal and external noises can be spec'd on any method of build. It's all in the detail.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mako]

5 hours ago, Thorfun said:

@Mako sounds like you need to spend some time reading the blogs of various members here. plenty of Passivhaus examples there. will give you a great understanding of what is involved and how the folks who keep the blogs approached every area of their build. 

 

I have found the information invaluable and often refer back to them when researching the various areas of a self-build.

 

7 minutes ago, Pete said:

I can confirm that a Passive house or house that has insulation is very quiet to live in. We also have triple glazing which adds to the quietness

Thank you, I think I will need to do more reading as well

[Mako]

7 minutes ago, Alexphd1 said:

What ever build method you choose, the devil is in the detail to hit PH or better. 

 

I dont want to knock PH but it is just a certificate that your house has met a certain level. One of the big reasons that put us of PH was the small details of PH certified equipment ie mvhr windows etc which costs a premium. 

 

I wouldn't choose to build a basement by choice but we are building a 3 sided basement in the next build as it fits in better with the site. It is easier & cheap to build above ground. 

 

It's pretty easy & cheap to add insulation to hit decent u values, usually just make the wall/floors and roof thicker. Again it's easy to spec up windows for better performance. All this is pointless if your house leaks air out so now you are looking at sealing everything....  now your house NEEDs a mvhr system.... this is the fabric first approach that's mentioned a lot on here.  Before you know it your house it preforming better than PH house certified house without all the red tape. 

There is a few other things to pay attention to ie overheating etc but it's not rocket science.

 

High levels of soundproof from internal and external noises can be spec'd on any method of build. It's all in the detail.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for the details, so far I’m getting that the importance lies with insulation level, airtightness and you can achieve the PH levels.

how do you deal with the overheating? PH recommends smaller window size, I guess orientation is important, what other elements can help?

Some mentioned Thermal mass how does that work?

thank you

[SuperJohnG]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

 

Don't confuse sound created by walking through a property and hearing noise from outside, they are two very different things.

I'm wondering if the OP is thinking the latter. Its something I wonder at the moment. I'm in a 1975 thermalite  block house. External leaf os brick but all internal walls bring this thermalite block (which is great to mount stuff on IMO). Im going to have a SIPS build with battens and plasterboard and whilst I'm excited about the low energy, I'm slightly concerned that I won't have the same solid feel on the internal walls. 

 

Welcome @Mako plenty to read and understand here.

[Mako]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

Categorically, no! The MBC timber-frame offerings that I have been around are graveyard quiet ( the ones with 300mm of Warmcell blown in to the walls and 400mm of Warmcell blown into the roofs, to be precise.

Don't confuse sound created by walking through a property and hearing noise from outside, they are two very different things.

How does the warmcell work? Is it a Timberframe structure with OSB or similar holding it in place?

i have been in few timberframe houses and you could hear cars driving outside. I have asked below, how do you deal

With overheating in well insulated TF properties?

[SuperJohnG]

Overheating in a PH is usually due to solar gain (sun heating the house) this is either through  the windows. Whereby you would add overhangs and a brise soleil. Or decrement delay (the time is takes heat to pass through your walls) not being sufficient. Which can both be bad if you have a house thats full of insulation. It's about getting the balance right. 

 

For thermal mass..its about how long you can retain heat in material. 

 

A good example being a potato ? ..if you've ever eaten a potato that's too hot and it sticks to the roof of your mouth and burns it off (everyone has done this!)....thats what something with high thermal mass is. 

[Alexphd1]

Unfortunately I wasnt willing to cut my glazing to meet PH so we have big external overhangs, high internal ceilings. The house is almost finished and we haven't had a overheating problem this Summer maybe this is due to being in NE Scotland. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mako]

2 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

advantages of basement -same roof size for more house space - ideal place for all services -so house is all living space

maybe important if plot size is small

 If basement is definite ,then ICF construction for house or at least basement should be top of your list 

how soggy  and soil type of your plot will make a big difference on price or sensibility of having a basement at a reasonable cost -are you on a flood plane? 

then maybe  garage  and services under main house --like a basement lifting house away from flood risk 

 so what i am saying is you should not make construction type or design  choice until you know where  you are building - all systems can make a house any shape you want

and of course what is your budget  and is it your forever home

that could decide choices  alot 

If not forever home then you might want to think about if you  could  sell it when its built for more than it cost you  in a couple of years time 

 I would not underestimate the effect of corvid on house prices in cities  in the next few years.

If I  was young i would not be starting a house build now  unless I could do it mostly myself --the house price bubble I fear may be popped if we get a long extension of this pandepmic -in cities at least.

 here  the house prices are jumping up -due to townies wanting to move out-especially houses /renovation projects  and plots those with land  ,just in the last few weeks -yes they are lower than cities even now --but is this the start of a big trend ?

I do not know - no one does --so i would not pay over the odds just to get a plot in a city --wait and keep saving 

 

 

Thank you for all the info, basement it is a small plot on a fairly sandy soils, hence there is that potential.

what system would you recommend for basement construction?

im afraid we are the townies moving out ?

would like to build and stay for at least 10years.

trying to build something that has low running costs, does not over heat, sound proofing is important due to road traffic noise.

and can be rendered and cladded.

thank you