zoothorn Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, joe90 said: The problem (I found) with frame kits with no nail on beading is if the frame is out of square a little the door won’t fit right, I like plant on door stops and these can be planted on to fit the door after it’s hung in the frame. Hi Joe. Can you just tell me. Is the wickes link in Peter's post a few ^ before... ... is this a frame kit? Edited October 24, 2020 by zoothorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, PeterW said: Measure across the gap where the door is going at the top, middle and bottom and post the dimensions. Do this first....then we will talk you through it........ Edited October 24, 2020 by joe90 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, joe90 said: Do this first.... Ok will do. (B b but I can't see how the answer to my Q is dependent on a measurement here: its either a kit, or its not one regardless of my door numnums). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 22 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Ok that's great. But I'm still confused about your link. Can we just clear this up. 1) is this a frame kit? 2) are you adding this wickes link as suggesting this as a good thing for me 3) are you adding it suggesting that it is a frame kit, and therefore not good for me. 1) yes it’s a frame kit 2) no it’s just an example of one - you can get them everywhere 3) no idea until you measure up Go get a tape, measure where the door is supposed to be fitted at top middle and bottom and post the answers, and then let’s do the next steps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 5 minutes ago, joe90 said: Do this first.... Top 79cm. Btm 79.3cm (if i go mm's on saturdays I get my smalls in a twist). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Ok will do. (B b but I can't see how the answer to my Q is dependent on a measurement here: its either a kit, or its not one regardless of my door numnums). It is very relevant !!! If you don’t have a big enough gap it’s pointless. Just now, zoothorn said: Top 79cm. Btm 79.3cm (if i go mm's on saturdays I get my smalls in a twist). Middle ..?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 1 minute ago, PeterW said: 1) yes it’s a frame kit 2) no it’s just an example of one - you can get them everywhere 3) no idea until you measure up Go get a tape, measure where the door is supposed to be fitted at top middle and bottom and post the answers, and then let’s do the next steps. Right! ok I think Im on board.. thanks for being patient there. Top 79cm. Btm 79.3cm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 1 minute ago, PeterW said: It is very relevant !!! If you don’t have a big enough gap it’s pointless. Middle ..?? 78.6 cm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 Ok so that will barely fit at standard frame and door, you need a door that you can trim possibly a few mm off both edges. A standard frame may fit but (big but..!!) you’ll need to get a rebated frame as they get their strength from the thicker side of the framing. This is an example of a rebated frame, you can get them from Jewsons but ask for a Rebated 5 inch Internal Door Lining https://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Softwood-Rebated-Door-Casing-33-x-131mm-x-2m/p/200332# May be easier to trim the wall opening to get this to fit, and tidy up afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 1 hour ago, PeterW said: Ok so that will barely fit at standard frame and door, you need a door that you can trim possibly a few mm off both edges. A standard frame may fit but (big but..!!) you’ll need to get a rebated frame as they get their strength from the thicker side of the framing. This is an example of a rebated frame, you can get them from Jewsons but ask for a Rebated 5 inch Internal Door Lining https://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Softwood-Rebated-Door-Casing-33-x-131mm-x-2m/p/200332# May be easier to trim the wall opening to get this to fit, and tidy up afterwards. I was thinking make my own door Peter, so I can trim galore, fits in with my other 2 bed doors, maybe lighter too. Can you explain this 'get its strength from the thicker side' bit. Where the door hangs from is my main concern. Does a door hang from the frame, rather than from the thing the frame is attatched to? I mean the rebated bit, in the wickes eg, looks like its designed to take a door load almost by itself (so long as the btm L&R struts are firm).. or if not all, then takes alot of the door load alone. My opening timber (beneath the pB) is not exactly strong looking you see.. worrying me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 Is this door fitting to old cottage wall or new wall built by builder in timber frame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 Two types of door frame, rebate vs plant on, I like plant on because you can make it fit the door exactly even if it’s a bit warped 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 As the drawing from @joe90 that shows the difference with the frame types. The force on a frame is tiny - you can use the same frame for a 40kg fire door as you do for a 7kg egg box MDF door, the difference is the hinges and how well you screw it to the frame. If you’re making a door you may as well make the frame. Use 5x1 Planed All Round timber and then use the rest for your door ledges and brace, and then clad it with T&G floor board assuming you’ve got a standard cottage door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 @PeterW so even if I have poor build area on which the frame attatches/ very poor timber bits structurally wise.. this is not neccessarily a problem to attatch frame onto, & then hang a door from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 1 hour ago, joe90 said: Is this door fitting to old cottage wall or new wall built by builder in timber frame? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 @PeterW I don't understand how the force on a frame is tiny. Even the t&g braced doors upstairs I took off to sand were heavy, so each will be pulling on the 2 hinges downwards on the frame, & the frame attached to X.. so X has to have the same force applied to this too (Id think pulling inwards, wouldn't it-?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, joe90 said: ? Its fitting sort of a poor mish-mash of both, plus some zoot construction to patch the poor area up prior to pB'ing over it all. Its the zoot bit I'm terrified about. Im digging out a pic.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 12 minutes ago, zoothorn said: @PeterW I don't understand how the force on a frame is tiny. Even the t&g braced doors upstairs I took off to sand were heavy, so each will be pulling on the 2 hinges downwards on the frame, & the frame attached to X.. so X has to have the same force applied to this too (Id think pulling inwards, wouldn't it-?). Vector forces through the frame - the weight on the hinges is unequal, so the door is trying to rotate about the bottom corner when it is closed.. The hinge side of the frame is being restrained at the top by the compressive strength of the header. Hence the suggestion by @Onoffto replace this with ply weakens the frames resistance to turning so it is relying on the screws and fixings to hold in place. This is why adding a third hinge helps as it restricts the turning moment on the top hinge and the pull on the frame. When the door is open it’s the frame fixings in shear that are stopping it twisting off the wall - hence the need to use a decent frame fixer into something solid. Two will hold a door, 3 are ideal, above and below the top hinge and above the bottom hinge ... Suffice to say .... Get the door, fit a frame and crack on ..! Unless you’ve just scored a nice 3” thick solid oak door off a cathedral, you’ll not have any issues ... Frame nice and plumb and square and you’ll be done in no time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 19 minutes ago, PeterW said: Vector forces through the frame - the weight on the hinges is unequal, so the door is trying to rotate about the bottom corner when it is closed.. The hinge side of the frame is being restrained at the top by the compressive strength of the header. Hence the suggestion by @Onoffto replace this with ply weakens the frames resistance to turning so it is relying on the screws and fixings to hold in place. This is why adding a third hinge helps as it restricts the turning moment on the top hinge and the pull on the frame. When the door is open it’s the frame fixings in shear that are stopping it twisting off the wall - hence the need to use a decent frame fixer into something solid. Two will hold a door, 3 are ideal, above and below the top hinge and above the bottom hinge ... Suffice to say .... Get the door, fit a frame and crack on ..! Unless you’ve just scored a nice 3” thick solid oak door off a cathedral, you’ll not have any issues ... Frame nice and plumb and square and you’ll be done in no time. Ok I get most of that thanks for explanation Peter. Its this bit that concerns me still though "hence the need to use a decent frame fixer into something solid".. considering my structurally poor mish-mash opening area, under my neat pB. Thank god I did a pic of each side before I pB'd over. Ok so door to go top step side (in pic 2 nearest to you, opening twds you too). zoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 I only seem to have a pic of one side here.. but, its the business side/ door opens from this side. The timber verticals might look ok, & pB helps sure it up.. but all a bit wobbly on gthis end here. Both sides of the 'tunnel' the same: block lower section, crappy timber patch-job plus PIR between for uppermost 2/3rds. Poor header timber under this bit of pB too/ a bit wobbly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 So that vertical timber is where you are putting your door frame?, how is it fixed to the wall? Does the insulation go behind this timber? Do me a little sketch of what’s there in section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 Header is irrelevant. So I would be carefully cutting back the plasterboard to get to the timber that is arrowed in the picture below, and then screwing the hinge side to that. Looks nice and solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 43 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Hence the suggestion by @Onoffto replace this with ply weakens the frames resistance to turning so it is relying on the screws and fixings to hold in place. Give over! A lightweight door would hang all day long on just the jam with no header. I do hope neither @Olf's or @ProDave's doors haven't fallen off yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, PeterW said: Header is irrelevant. So I would be carefully cutting back the plasterboard to get to the timber that is arrowed in the picture below, and then screwing the hinge side to that. Looks nice and solid. Header is irrelevant? How so when you've just made a big song and dance about my suggestion of using 6mm ply instead? Make your mind up or if you've a problem with me then say so. Edited October 24, 2020 by Onoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 I mean the header that he refers to here .. 48 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Poor header timber under this bit of pB too/ a bit wobbly. The frame header is integral to stopping the jamb moving if he’s not got anything decent to fix it into which is what he is saying. Assuming @ProDave has decent double frame either side then the fixings are holding his jamb back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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