Bitpipe

Is this one reason there is a permanent UK housing crisis...

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Average tenure is < 2 years.

 

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Yes.

 

IMO.

 

The Cabinet Level Ministers - bosses of the above - are as bad.

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No.

It is the idea that personal housing can supliment income from working.

Until that notion is banished, and until we relax and simplify planning, we will have a problem.

 

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7 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

No.

It is the idea that personal housing can supliment income from working.

Until that notion is banished, and until we relax and simplify planning, we will have a problem.

 

If all rental properties suddenly became owner occupied, there would still be the same number of houses, and there would still be the same number who don't have a house and can't afford one.  Except there would be nowhere for them to rent......

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30 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Except there would be nowhere for them to rent......

So the same number that are homeless (as opposed to rough sleeping).

That is why I mentioned relaxing planning rules.

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I feel housing policy in the UK is all over the place.

 

Help to Buy - cheap housing, tarmac towns, driven by pension scheme profits, results in young people being up to their eyeballs in debt for the rest of their lives. Rubbish quality of life.

 

It surprises me that building regulations are getting tougher and more expensive to meet. But we are building on rubbish flood land.

 

We need to look at the European mainland, renting can be normal, more self build homes properly supported by council/government.

 

I feel that self building is often seen as being a folly of older middle class.  Small self building developments should be an option for everybody. The government support should be more than a rubbish portal.

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Cabinet minister are mainly figureheads to keep the political game going, department more or less run themselves if left alone to do the work. The UK housing problem is down to the state abandoning support for it. So in a way you are right. It was turning into a political scheme under Thatcher and no one since seems to have the will to do what is needed to readjust the balance. That balance being to provide cheap rentable accommodation for the means of providing a stable family, which lead to stable community, which lead to less crime, less wealth problems but less profit.

It's hard to see how now it's going to get fixed. To simplify it think of not house but cars - imagine if the cost of cars were so high 70% of people couldn't hope to afford to buy one. But the country need more people to drive so who do you get around that problem? lower the price of cars - those who have bought won't vote for you if you do that. So you end up kicking the can down the road and pretend you are doing something about it by subsidising those who can afford to buy at the current price. But the market is not daft and so the 20% you give to the market they pocket it by inflating the price - because they know the buyer has free money given to them by the government.

The only way this will be resolved is by building council houses, which will almost certainly collapse the private rentable market back to where it was in the 1980s but house prices should not be affected too much but will be affected.

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48 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

No.

It is the idea that personal housing can supliment income from working.

Until that notion is banished, and until we relax and simplify planning, we will have a problem.

 

 

Is that not a reference to capital gain rather than rental, although there arecth8ngs such as the tax free lodgers allowance which sensibly encourage exactly personal housing as income supplementing.

 

Clearly a rental sector is necessary as .. leaving aside voluntary renters for jobs, not wanting the biter of maintaining etc ... there are around 12m people with impaired credit who would struggle to buy even if it was affordable.

 

Ferdinand

 

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3 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

 

Is that not a reference to capital gain rather than rental, although there arecth8ngs such as the tax free lodgers allowance which sensibly encourage exactly personal housing as income supplementing.

 

Clearly a rental sector is necessary as .. leaving aside voluntary renters for jobs, not wanting the biter of maintaining etc ... there are around 12m people with impaired credit who would struggle to buy even if it was affordable.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

Or large family homes to be run as B&B under that allowance rule.

 

Around us there is very little affordable housing. It's all either B&B or Self Catering. Any property on the open market is vastly inflated because a lot of property is no longer reviewed as being 'residential' people hold out for the 'commercial' value this is particularly true for self catering.

 

Instances have occurred here when a badly needed social development was built, somebody transferred in from another local housing association in Scotland and then started to let rooms as B&B. Some of the neighbours started to get annoyed when tour buses were pulling up.

 

 

 

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@Ferdinand

It is difficult, probably why our chancellor had just quit.

But, not counting chemical addiction, a surplus of a product reduces price, and makes trading easier.

It is hard to trade in uranium, but easy to trade in food.

If we want a truly sustainable housing market, then we have to do several things.

Increase supply

Lower barriers to entry

Relax planning

Increase replacement rates

Simplify purchase

Productionise construction

Clarify building standards

 

And probably a lot more as well.

 

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1 hour ago, ProDave said:

If all rental properties suddenly became owner occupied, there would still be the same number of houses, and there would still be the same number who don't have a house and can't afford one.  Except there would be nowhere for them to rent......

 

There would also be a massive increase in ‘homeless’, since rentals in both social and private sectors are roughly 100% occupied whilst half of Owner Occupied houses are actually under occupied. Move a million houses from rental to OO, and you create half a million people needing a new house.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/817036/FA1422_overcrowding_and_under-occupation_by_tenure.xlsx

 

Ferdinand

 

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19 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

since rentals in both social and private sectors are roughly 100% occupied whilst half of Owner Occupied houses are actually under occupied. Move a million houses from rental to OO, and you create half a million people needing a new house.

Isn't this one of those statistical artefacts (neither art or a fact), based on the assumption that there is an idea occupancy for a house?

There are hundreds of underused homes down here, many owned by housing associations/private landlords/council.

But there is really isn't a housing crisis.  There is a problem with price i.e. upcountry rents, poor local wages.

It is easy to claim a housing crisis, but without a real definition, it is a meaningless term.  It is about as useful a fuel poverty or, council tax poverty, or holiday poverty, broadband poverty....

 

Edited by SteamyTea

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3 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

Average tenure is < 2 years.

 

And the crisis is? Who defines the term crisis?

 

Just seen 

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

[...]

It is easy to claim a housing crisis, but without a real definition, it is a meaningless term. 

[...]

 

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48 minutes ago, AnonymousBosch said:

 

And the crisis is? Who defines the term crisis?

 

Just seen 

 

If you go on the almost any town or city high street you'll see a crisis in every other doorway.
If you go to a foodbank you'll meet several "crisis" who depend on that foodbank to make ends meet because their rent is over 50% of their income or the are on zero hour contracts and have not had enough work that week to meet their rent and food bill.
If you talk to people you'll know about a lot of 30 year old "crisis" who are stuck either renting in shared accommodation of still at home with their parents.

That's my definition of housing crisis but as you can see it's only one crisis of many. Wait till this generation get to the point where they need care in their old age. Then you'll find out what happens when on crisis crashes into another. And if that's not enough for you consider also education is in crisis so another wave to hit yet.

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33 minutes ago, Delicatedave said:

...
That's my definition of housing crisis but as you can see it's only one crisis of many. ...

 

The key word is "my".

As long as there is no universal understanding of the term, then it is open to manipulation. 

We all do it.

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I wonder really just what is the "crisis". At a real life level, i.e. in the streets of cities and towns around us, what does it actually mean.

 

They say there is a housing shortage, but I wonder about that - I do not know enough about this topic so everything said here is just me thinking aloud and trying to get my head around it all.

 

There are towns with streets and streets of empty properties, I accept older stock that may need work, but last time I saw these for sale they were about £25,000 - so if people want cheap housing why don't they buy one of those, spend £25K on it and they have to my mind a cheap house - just how cheap do we need? 

 

The "shortage" must be mainly a wealth divide drawn in the sand - if your affordable stock is say £40K then you have a problem for sure as I assume there are not too many houses for £40K so is it really a shortage or is it an affordability crisis?? Let's just assume that the crisis was cancelled tomorrow, house builders continue to do their thing, self builders do their thing and LA and housing associations continue to build and renovate housing stock - nothing different to what is going on today, just there is no "crisis" label - now lets say they started an affordability crisis, this could be solved through other means...

 

 

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1 minute ago, Russell griffiths said:

Would it not just be easier to have less people. 

The whole world is overpopulated 

 


David Attenborough has been saying that for years, perhaps this latest virus is the “Giai principle” in action?😱

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1 hour ago, Delicatedave said:

If you go to a foodbank you'll meet several "crisis" who depend on that foodbank to make ends meet because their rent is over 50% of their income or the are on zero hour contracts and have not had enough work that week to meet their rent and food bill.
If you talk to people you'll know about a lot of 30 year old "crisis" who are stuck either renting in shared accommodation of still at home with their parents.

So the first crisis isn't a housing one, that is an affordability, employment crisis essentially.

 

The 20-30 year olds I think mainly got/get their priorities wrong. Many of them left home at 18 to go the Uni and live with friends and drink, and they got a car lease or HP for a new Ka for £120.00 a month, they also have the latest iPhone or Galaxy tablet and can go away to the sun with friends and piss away £100's on festivals and booze - now they need a house and have pissed all their money away from day 1. Now possibly in their late 20's early 30's and they are stuffed as they now have an Audi A3 outside mum and dads, spend all their money every weekend and struggle to put away £100 a month. The crisis I see over and over again is stupidity and a lack of planning - perpetual students. 

 

I started saving while at uni, not very successfully right enough but I always had some money, I then paid off any debts and started saving in my first real job after uni, I did a degree that was going to almost certainly result in a real world job and probably several at that, I didn't do "French with Sports studies" then cry because, guess what, there are no follow on jobs from that degree. These young adults need to look at themselves I think. I continued to save hard while living with my parents and driving a 15 year old car I owned, I changed the oil on and repaired and kept in goof fettle and bought my first house when I was in my late 20's. I skipped the starter house right enough but I only bought my house because my wife, then girlfriend, and I decided we would move in together and I was happy to move onto the next chapter in my life. I was lucky though, I understand that, but I work hard, I save hard and I enjoy live but don't throw money away and have always had these values. 

 

Instil some of the post war values back into people and I think the country would be a better place, better work ethic, pride in their work and country, respect, care and realistic and sustainable plans for their futures. 

 

Not sure how unfair this will be viewed as, but this is something I see a lot of so it's accurate from my perception and also from what I hear, read about, see etc. It's even happening on the street I live in - young lad along the road 17-19, left school last year and I assume is at uni or college now, however, a brand new Golf turns up the summer he left school which appears to be his - young girl a few doors up, same situation, has a new Mini and around September after leaving school she moved out as I can only assume to go to uni - still has the Mini - don't think she needs it from what I can see...  I also hear about similar stories through colleagues and clients, neighbours talking about older kids who have moved out, my wife sees it in some of the younger admin girls at her work (all 1-2 year old HP/Lease cars), they call into the radio and moan, Jeremy Vine quickly ascertains where they do spend money and oh boy, do they get their priorities wrong!

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

Would it not just be easier to have less people. 

The whole world is overpopulated 

 

Coronavirus might do this.

 

Climate/housing/energy crisis will all be solved through population reduction or even just population control. 

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1 minute ago, Carrerahill said:

Coronavirus might do this.

 

Climate/housing/energy crisis will all be solved through population reduction or even just population control. 

I’m afraid I am a firm believer that the country and world is overpopulated 

however I try to keep my views on here to bricks and mortar. 

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2 hours ago, Delicatedave said:

If you go on the almost any town or city high street you'll see a crisis in every other doorway.

 

There are different categories of homeless.

 

On the one hand there are rough sleepers eg on benches, doorways, subways etc as you highlight.

 

That is relatively easy to address with relatively few resources - eg the Tory Governments from about 1990 onwards ran the programme called the Rough Sleepers Initiative which reduced rough sleeping in London by around 70%, at a cost of around 30m a year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_Sleepers_Initiative

 

New Labour repeated the trick across the country in a very few years from 1997 on.

 

IMO the current series of Tory Govts are guilty of unforgiveable neglect of this issue - rough sleeping has gone up again very significantly - yet it is relatively inexpensive and well known how to deal with it.   

 

Then there is "sofa surfing" type homelessness - people who cannot afford or cannot find housing. This requires more affordability or housing supply, or denser occupation.

 

Then there is "temporary accommodation" type homelessness - eg people in B&B. This is a matter of people with a right to Social Housing not having supply available.

 

Then there are "Council waiting lists", which is really a measure of people who aspire to less expensive housing rather than homelessness.

 

There are background factors such as average household size have fallen significantly eg couples living apart, and others. And also the one @SteamyTea highlights of accommodation being used as second homes or holiday lets. Will comment on this separately.

 

The are Private Rental Sector issues with the conduct of Councils, but as that is a hobbyhorse for me I will leave it alone here.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited by Ferdinand

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When I walk round our village at night it’s surprising how many are permanently in darkness, either being under used second homes or unoccupied investment properties.  

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The housing crisis is just a symptom of a deeper problem. We are a second world nation but don't appreciate that fact yet.

  • Our middle classes have become clipboard huggers who assess the work of imported foreign workers who do the real work.
  • We are an overcrowded nation with net immigration levels that require the building of a new Coventry each year.
  • We embark of fanciful expensive national projects that we can neither afford or have the competence to execute, look at HS2 and the two new Royal Navy aircraft carriers which in military terms are little more than expensive formula milk delivery cargo vessels.
  • The ruling Public Sector elite has not done anything credible since the just-in-time creation of the RAF's early warning defence system in 1936.
  • And we cannot even afford to repair our pot-hole blighted roads.

FX Private Frazer from Dad's Army "We are doomed, doomed I tell you".

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1 hour ago, Russell griffiths said:

I’m afraid I am a firm believer that the country and world is overpopulated 

however I try to keep my views on here to bricks and mortar. 

You better do, Adolf  😂

 In regards to the topic of housing in the UK. Here is something my small brain can understand : (careful, socialist propaganda)

 

Edited by Patrick

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