Self build newbie

[vivienz]

Morning,

 

OH and I are just about to complete on a plot in Dorset.  It currently has a 1950s pre-fab bungalow on it and we plan to demolish and re-build with an energy efficient house.  There is no mains gas or sewage and broadband isn't scheduled to arrive until 2017 at the moment, so GSHP is on the cards as well as solar PV and then a small treatment plant for sewage.  We're not sure what to do about internet access, but that can wait untl we're closer to actually having a new home - it could be a while!

 

The site comes with full PP to build a new house, but it's not one that we like so once we have plans we will submit to amend the existing PP; the vendors really went to town with all the surveys they had done so we'd rather not have to repeat all that.  I've also had a pre-app meeting with the planning officer and he's receptive to our ideas for a larger and very contemporary build rather than the existing proposals.

 

We're at the stage of researching architects - have seen 5, had 2 quotes with the rest to follow and subject to these narrowed down to a shortlist of 3.  An interesting process.

 

So, here we are, terrified and excited in equal measures, wondering what the hell we're doing and hoping to pick the brains of those who have gone before us.

 

Vivien

[Tennentslager]

Welcome Vivien,

Sounds like a big and interesting project?

[Crofter]

Welcome aboard- you're in the right place!

Quite a few of our members here bypassed architects altogether, some went for architectural technicians instead, others not even that.

Stick to your guns with what you want, especially on the technical side.

Good luck and keep us posted

[ProDave]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

 

I am one that bypassed an architect, because my experience was they based their fees on a percentage of the estimated build cost.  I don't know where they got their figures from but their estimate of the build cost was about double what it actually cost us (so of course that means their fees were double what they should be), but others have had better experiences and there are some architects on this forum who may be able to help.
 

[Ferdinand]

Welcome.

[mike2016]

Hi Vivien,

 

Welcome. I'm using an Architectural firm after moving away from a lone Architect. You're doing the right thing in sifting through which one to use. Take your time with the initial design process, lines on a page are easier to move than actual walls onsite! I did up a spreadsheet based on my brief and rated the first Architect on it, got below 50% so after waiting a while for any progress, decided to engage with a larger firm and cut my losses. Now things are progressing well and although it's very, very expensive (I've never paid anyone this much in my life), for a first time builder I'm happier with having them onboard guiding me. Next time around I think I'd be more adventurous but for now, it's great to have them working the design and they've already saved me a lot on a Quantity Surveyor. Interestingly, the current Architect fees and QS are fixed price, the previous was 11% & 3% of build costs which added up to about the same in the end but could escalate quickly. 

There's great knowledge around here and they always answer my often idiotic questions so reach out if you're not sure of anything or need basic things explained. 

[Gone West]

Hi Vivien, welcome to the forum. We also designed our self build ourselves because we knew what we wanted it to look like and what layout we wanted. It's a good to have an idea of what type of construction you want to use because it may impact on the design you want and how much, if any, of the build you want to do.

[joe90]

Welcome, I designed our house myself and didn't need an architect but I did engage one ( at a negotiated price because he didn't  have to "design" it) to do all the cad drawings ( I still use a board and paper ?) And do the building regs stuff. 

[TerryE]

Hi, I did the same as @ProDave, and used an AT rather than an architect.  So long as you want a sensible house rather than a Grand Design, then IMO I would recommend this. An AT will convert your design ideas into AutoCAD and prepare (or help you prepare) the planning application and even some of the BReg submissions.

 

An architect will usually insist on an independent QS to price the build and then both will charge a ℅ of the value for their services. This can be 15-20℅ of the QS valuation. An architect will also often want to retain the IPR on his or her design, so if you have a fall out then using the design that you've paid for might be problematic. 

 

You might also need a project manager to oversee the build and your contractors. Many of us used an AT and did the PM ourselves, which saves a shit load of money. However, there is no free lunch, if you go this route you will also take a lot of risk, stress and work on your shoulders, so you should only so this eyes wide open.

 

Doing a self build is not an easy option, but if you it and accept the costs of the route for you then it can be amazingly rewarding getting exactly the house that you wanted.

[Stones]

Yes a warm welcome.  I'm another who has always designed my own houses (currently building number 6).  Our current house is probably the most ambitious design we have undertaken.  For this build, I employed a freelancer to convert my scaled floorplan to CAD.  Cost me £150.  

[jack]

On 10/19/2016 at 18:47, TerryE said:

An architect will usually insist on an independent QS to price the build and then both will charge a ℅ of the value for their services. This can be 15-20℅ of the QS valuation.

 

Is that usual?  None of the architects we spoke to require a QS to price the build.  They nominally used a percentage, but it was based on an informal build cost estimate, usually agreed in advance (especially where the architect isn't involved beyond the design stages).  The estimate is at least partly based on the fact that you'll have given the architect your budget in advance anyway, but will necessarily be hugely rough given how hard it is to do a real estimate anyway.  

 

[Temp]

All the architects we spoke to quoted their fee as a percentage of the finished build cost. This meant that any cost over run or a decision to splash out on a more expensive kitchen cost you more in architects fees as well.

[TerryE]

On 19/10/2016 at 18:47, TerryE said:

An architect will usually insist on an independent QS to price the build and then both will charge a ℅ of the value for their services.

 

9 hours ago, jack said:

Is that usual?  None of the architects we spoke to require a QS to price the build.  They nominally used a percentage, but it was based on an informal build cost estimate, usually agreed in advance (especially where the architect isn't involved beyond the design stages).  The estimate is at least partly based on the fact that you'll have given the architect your budget in advance anyway, but will necessarily be hugely rough given how hard it is to do a real estimate anyway. 

 

6 hours ago, Temp said:

All the architects we spoke to quoted their fee as a percentage of the finished build cost. This meant that any cost over run or a decision to splash out on a more expensive kitchen cost you more in architects fees as well.

 

The nub of this is how you agree with the architect is the value that they will charge a % of.  As you say, Jack, some might be willing to use the initial estimated cost, but this can prove to be very optimistic and doesn't protect that architect from any "Grand Designs" on the part of the customer.  As Colin says the other extreme is to use the finished build costs which doesn't give the right incentives to the architect to manage costs on behalf of or the customer.  Or your can take the "unbiased independent expert" approach, use a QS to value the build and base the architect's fees on this.

 

Whether to use a QS or not in itself has pros and cons.  The major con is that they charge a fee usually base on a % of the costs.  A pro is that this give the self-builder an honest estimate of the likely costs and a baseline for price negotiations with subcontractors.  We decided not to use a QS and we didn't see the value as being greater to use than the fee.  The only major cost variation that we suffered was as a result of the planners imposed constraint of using local quarried stone.  Our local quarry is a pretty small one and doesn't "cut on the bed", to the stone needed a lot of labour to cut, dres and finish it and this probably added £20K to our stone skin costs. Ouch, but how would a QS estimate have helped here?  

 

[jack]

8 hours ago, Temp said:

All the architects we spoke to quoted their fee as a percentage of the finished build cost. This meant that any cost over run or a decision to splash out on a more expensive kitchen cost you more in architects fees as well.

 

2 hours ago, TerryE said:

As you say, Jack, some might be willing to use the initial estimated cost, but this can prove to be very optimistic and doesn't protect that architect from any "Grand Designs" on the part of the customer. 

 

We spoke to 7 or 8 architects, and not one of them wanted to charge based on what the final bill actually was.  How could they even know that unless they were involved beyond planning?  

 

I suspect we have hundreds of invoices from our build.  Will the architect really want to go through those to figure out how much we spent?  

 

If I decided to do £20k worth of work myself or with the help of a mate in the trade, how are they going to value that?  

 

And why should the fact that I change my mind later in the build and decide to install a £100k kitchen instead of a £5k kitchen have anything to do with the architect unless they're actively involved at that stage?  Surely if they're only taking the job as far as planning (which I suspect is as far as most people on this forum who uses an architect will go) the architect's final bill will already have been paid long before work even commences onsite?

 

Indeed, I asked the first two or three about why they used the percentage of estimated costs approach.  They all said that it was just the easiest way of doing things.  A couple expressly gave the kitchen example, and said that the reason they'd expect a higher fee if they were involved with the design and installation of an expensive kitchen is that more expensive kitchens usually result in more management on their part (more appliances, higher expectation on finishes, more lighting and electrics to consider etc).  But they all said that if they weren't managing the build at that point, they didn't see why they should expect more money just because we decided to splurge on a kitchen.

 

Maybe we had an unusual experience, but I'm very surprised at these comments!    

[ProDave]

Well Jack, I wish I had your architects here. The only ones I could find quoted on a percentage of build cost, and were not open to any negotiation, take it or leave it (I left it)  I tried arguing their estimate of the cost was way to high (I could not afford to build it if it actually cost that much) and i tried arguing I don't need them to oversee the build, but again they would not budge.

 

If I had found someone willing to do the design and drawings for a reasonable cost then I would. In fact that is what i did with an architectural technician, not an architect, and he subcontracted a structural engineer to specify some of the technical aspects of the building design.
 

[jack]

12 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Well Jack, I wish I had your architects here.

 

It wouldn't be relevant to the architect that I could get it built for half the cost, because their way of estimating their charges is nothing to do with actual build costs.  I suspect it's as simple as the estimated floorspace multiplied by a rough number representing typical build costs to the standard initially suggested by the client.  It's just a massively easier way of coming up with a number than working it all out from scratch every time.  I'm sure @Sensus can explain how far off I am with that assumption.

 

I'm surprised no-one would agree to just do the design.  I get the impression it's pretty rare down here for the architect to be involved all the way through unless it's a pretty special job.  Could well be wrong about that though.

[MikeSharp01]

All 5 of the architects we spoke to had the idea of % as a possible goal but only if they were managing the whole build. One thing you need to know, and I quote a friend of mine who last year commissioned £22m of buildings here, is that 'Architects don't do money' so the price will be anywhere but where you want it because they just draw it and don't think about how it will be made or how much it will cost. I think I should have added a clause to the contract with ours that said they would design to the budget and show us how it met the budget, Basically we ended up with fixed price everywhere except their input on the actual build which is bit open ended and that has an hourly charge.

[Redoctober]

On ‎19‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 19:15, Stones said:

Our current house is probably the most ambitious design we have undertaken.  For this build, I employed a freelancer to convert my scaled floorplan to CAD.  Cost me £150.  

 Hi Stones - Could I just ask why you had yours plans converted to CAD? What are the benefits other than having lovely images of the proposed build? The reason I ask is simply because we too have designed our own house and currently only have scaled drawings.   Are CAD images a perquisite for any aspect of the build?

Either way, how did you source your freelancer because for that price, it seems like it would be worthwhile, even if it is just to get a 3D perspective of our intended dwelling.

Thanks PW.

[TerryE]

The main advantage a CAD format is that you will invariably need to dick around with them, either for amendments our as you go through the design and build process.  Having them is a CAD format means that they are fundamentally editable / tractable / shareable with suppliers, etc. .

[Stones]

2 hours ago, Redoctober said:

 Hi Stones - Could I just ask why you had yours plans converted to CAD? What are the benefits other than having lovely images of the proposed build? The reason I ask is simply because we too have designed our own house and currently only have scaled drawings.   Are CAD images a perquisite for any aspect of the build?

Either way, how did you source your freelancer because for that price, it seems like it would be worthwhile, even if it is just to get a 3D perspective of our intended dwelling.

Thanks PW.

 

I initially drew our floorplan up on graph paper, as I find this the easiest way of getting proportions and room sizes right.  I subsequently spent a few hours on Sketch Up, drawing up a scaled 2D floorplan, and 3D renderings of the house which I used during pre-app planning discussions. The decision to go down the CAD route was primarily a pragmatic one, to have plans that were:

 

2 hours ago, TerryE said:

The main advantage a CAD format is that you will invariably need to dick around with them, either for amendments our as you go through the design and build process.  Having them is a CAD format means that they are fundamentally editable / tractable / shareable with suppliers, etc. .

 

I used one of the main online free lancing sites to find the chap who drew up my CAD drawings (his details are on the plans linked to on my blog). I sent him my 2D Sketch Up floorplan from which he produced floorplan and elevations of the house and detached garage  in PDF and DWG formats. He also did my site and location plans for me. 

 

 

 

 

[Fallingditch]

Having been through a lot of pain ...

On 18/10/2016 at 11:08, vivienz said:

We're at the stage of researching architects - have seen 5, had 2 quotes with the rest to follow and subject to these narrowed down to a shortlist of 3.  An interesting process."

From our experience ...

 

1. The Architect has the 'aesthetic vision' - it certainly does make sense to employ one, but in my experience there are a few other things that you can and should be thinking about at this stage (because that will inform the dialogue you will have with prospective architects).

 

2. It was the selection of the Structural Engineer that caused us the biggest problem. We went with the a local one (delays) then another local one (more delays, more expense). Ultimately, we took advice from people on this site and used a SE may others have used and the experience has been good. (Hilliard from TSD). As a novice, you think 'how hard can the Engineering be' and it turns out that every SE comes up with a different scheme, with wildly differing numbers of piles required (for example). Also the Architect you select might prefer to work with their own SE (who maybe good or they may not.  So you might want to say to the Architect 'are you willing to work with the SE we select?"). Look, I do accept its a bit chicken and egg - but if we had selected our SE early on we would have saved two years!

 

3. The other question you need to consider before selecting the Architect is how you are going to build the bloody thing. Again, speaking from experince: We made this false assumption that there is a 'market' in building contractors, and that when you put your designs out to tender, someone will give you a good price. Wrong. We went to six main Contractors for tenders, giving them a full set of plans, a specificaon for Building Services and a specification of all materials from a Quantty Surveyor. The cheapest tender was £2,000 per sq m. Most expensive was £3,750  per sq m. Options you have are: turnkey (full prefab house from Germany/Sweden for example); part turnkey (where they construct and handowver at 1st fix or 2nd fix eg Ireland/Melgium); main contracor (see above); use your own project manager who brings in their subcontractors; or manage/build it yourself. Again, I would choose my preferred construction option before selecting an architect. (In fact we have gone with a project manager and it is coming out below £1,500 per sq m and that's to a pretty good quality).

 

4. We ended up with an Atchitectural Technician, who I paid by the hour. I didn't detect in lack of skills on my AT's part. I certainly wasn't prepared to pay on a percentage basis and I think if you try and go fixed price its all liable to get hairy as you start changing things from the original design (and change things you will!!). The relationship here is critical, obviously. Keep looking for one until you are 100%. Make sure the contract allows you to terminate at any time and retain IP over the plans to date. Final tip: make sure they have the capability to render the plans in 3D - when you can see and navigate through the virtual building from a tablet it tells you so much more!

 

5. Set aside many hours to read through this site (and refer to its forerunner ebuild.co.uk).  I would not have been able to build my house to the quality desired without it ! Forum members are incredibly generous with their time and advice. 

 

6. If you can, try and identify someone (from this site?) who has done this thing before (or is in the middle of doing it). If at all possible, try and visit them to get some feeling for the big picture. Again from experience, we thought the architect would bring all this to the table, but in point of fact, they don't. You need to hone in on some of the big decisions, and only then fire off the Architect to go through Planning again.

 

Very best wishes - everyone should try and build their house once in their lifetime :-)

 

 

 

 

[ProDave]

2 hours ago, Fallingditch said:

 

3. The other question you need to consider before selecting the Architect is how you are going to build the bloody thing. Again, speaking from experince: We made this false assumption that there is a 'market' in building contractors, and that when you put your designs out to tender, someone will give you a good price. Wrong. We went to six main Contractors for tenders, giving them a full set of plans, a specificaon for Building Services and a specification of all materials from a Quantty Surveyor. The cheapest tender was £2,000 per sq m. Most expensive was £3,750  per sq m. Options you have are: turnkey (full prefab house from Germany/Sweden for example); part turnkey (where they construct and handowver at 1st fix or 2nd fix eg Ireland/Melgium); main contracor (see above); use your own project manager who brings in their subcontractors; or manage/build it yourself. Again, I would choose my preferred construction option before selecting an architect. (In fact we have gone with a project manager and it is coming out below £1,500 per sq m and that's to a pretty good quality).

 
 

Just a little footnote to that.  I live in a small community, and most builders know each other.  I know for a fact sometimes when a build goes out for tender, they talk amongst themselves, decide who wants or can do the job, and the rest submit a high tender.  Just be careful.

 

[jack]

37 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Just a little footnote to that.  I live in a small community, and most builders know each other.  I know for a fact sometimes when a build goes out for tender, they talk amongst themselves, decide who wants or can do the job, and the rest submit a high tender.  Just be careful.

 

 

Mark Brinkley describes exactly this in the Housebuilder's Bible.

[TerryE]

Picking up @Fallingditch's last post, as well as my earlier comments, I have done IT project management in my career but not PM of a build, however there are some simple PM rules that apply universally:

• Keep your contractor and sub-contractor relationships simple
• Keep their scopes well defined
• Minimise contractor interfaces, as this is where the messy problems tend to occur
• Have a clear understanding who owns the costs consequences of risk and change.

We decided to partition our work:

• I was the prime contractor ( or at least my wife Jan and I shared this role), including PM, overall architecture, procurement, budgeting, etc.
• We had a TA who worked for us on a cost recovery basis.
• We chose MBC to do the slab, frame, air-tighness, all SE calcs
• We used ecoHaus SW/Internorm for our windows and doors
• We chose a local builder with an extremely good reputation for quality builds to do all exterior groundworks including drainage, and the stone skin and roof.  He used his own subcontractors.  The work was split into packages; some were fixed prices and some cost-recovery.
• We were responsible for all internal works inside the frame, though in practice our builder recommended his preferred electrical and plastering contractors.  We also did all of the woodwork, plumbing and decorating, albeit using subcontract support for the last two. 

  This split has worked well apart from one thorn:  the plasterers pissed us around on start times -- but in the great scheme of things, not a disaster; just a pain.

[ProDave]

So Sensus, can you tell mt WHY when I approached architects, with a sketch of the flor plan of the house I wanted to build, they all just wanted to quote a price based on a percentage of the construction cost, and none would give a simple price just to detail the design?