Concrete pour in heavy rain.

[zoothorn]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

This does not add up.  I just do not believe if you phone the police and say "My neighbours builder is tipping soil in a forest" that they are going to turn up knocking on your door.  It is hard enough to get a policeman to attend when a real crime is reported.

 

And even if they do, you simply inform them your builder has an interest in the forest so no law is being broken.

 

It adds up -only- if you're so masterful at manipulating people, especially on the phone, you persuade the police to turn up. Ist thing PC said was "I was driving by & saw.." utter BLX likely said to disuade me from pointing blame at a n'bor I thought who made a complaint (never seen 1 police car in 3 yrs anywhere around here). My PCSO said same "oh just passing by.." (an odd 'check' visit once/ separate to this, but re. same n'bors tho/ a 2 yr campaign of putting dog muck on my property overnight he's done sweet fk all about) & I could tell immediately it wasn't true.

[zoothorn]

@PeterW yes I'm taking build pics, they had to unceremoniously rip out some of my beech hedge y'day (where digger is) which upset me tbh.. but I guess needed to/ access to block & render etc. There's the digger & the forest in background, & behind dumper.. the fkr n'bors.

 

 

 

 

[daiking]

16 hours ago, zoothorn said:

@PeterW yes I'm taking build pics, they had to unceremoniously rip out some of my beech hedge y'day (where digger is) which upset me tbh.. but I guess needed to/ access to block & render etc. There's the digger & the forest in background, & behind dumper.. the fkr n'bors.

 

 

 

 

no wonder they’re pissed with you ?

 

I can only echo the be nice comments, it will drive them even madder.

[Carrerahill]

18 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Hi chaps. Got my extention foundations concrete pour expected fri, but looking at the weather its looks dreadful/ a hell of alot of heavy rain all day west wales. Is this of concern? As a client (no input in the build as such) am I in any position to query this chosen day?

 

Damned annoyingly, it was meant to be poured y'day.. but my sod n'bors complained (for the umpteenth time at me/ only to instigate an official to knock on my door, police, council, env health.. anyone they can think of, mainly just to cause me stress of visit after visit after visit) this time the police knocking on my door: the excavated clay was being dumped in the forest you see & someone complained, tbh perfectly reasonable so to do if spread, & my builder has some jurastiction of the forest. It meant hours of rangling & landowners out & police had to be subdued, my builder furious with whoever called police (I know who as it follows a pattern as said) as it ruined the sheduled pour, & now I'll be furious if this wash-out friday pour instead will be compromised. And my sod n'bors happily grinning away watching. Its quite incredible how much stress 2 people have caused me over 2 years now, just with a phone.

 

Zoot.

 

It is not great if it will be heavy rain. I am surprised by the number of people who have said it will be fine, concrete works on a water to cement ratio - high surface water will create a very high water ratio - this leads to reduced strength/crumbly surface or it can wash all the cement away and leave just aggregate and fines, so although I am sure it will be fine, it would be very wise to sheet the lot and try your best to stop water getting in on top of the founds. 

 

I would look at low spots etc. once you sheet it can you persuade the water to run away from the founds and not just under the sheet and into the found anyway?

[Carrerahill]

18 hours ago, zoothorn said:

 

I reassured by this, but look if 50-70mm hammers down during & after the pour it'll surely mix in.. I mean how could it not.. which therefore has to weaken the mix-?

If even 20mm hammers down during the pour/immediately after I would be concerned.

 

If this pour is to to ahead I would first have the water ratio altered from the batch yard for a low slump concrete - lower than the slump you would want - if pouring then happens in the rain then the reduced water in the concrete mix will help when the rain goes in and then you will reach your target slump - I'd also go up to say a C30 so the cement ratio is increased, that allows for more water... 

 

If the met office are wrong - have the mix jagged.

 

Builders love to add too much water, they are being lazy - so they will probably think it is fine that it runs like tomato soup. 

 

 

[zoothorn]

@Carrerahill I can't possibly even ask re. resheduling let alone get onto the yard re. the ratios.. its just not my jurastiction. I am the client. Only once they've built will I jump in & do inside work, but this build is 100% not +me involved from their build/ work pov. If I were to get onto the yard.. how do you think my builder will react?! he would go absolutely fkn mad & I'd ruin the good relationship I have with him.

 

Ok I wasn't concerned before but now I am again. I am now absolutely fkn furious with whoever called the police & stopped tuesdays cement.. maybe they even saw forcast & this prompted the call/ the sod husband was an architect + their cunning xyz together at me over 2 yrs now has been SO damn clever/ calculated, as much as its been atrocious.

 

I havent the money, or the resources, the know-how, the dare, or time to go & buy & then put up covering tarps over what 20 sqM? its impossible.

[Carrerahill]

20 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

@Carrerahill I can't possibly even ask re. rescheduling let alone get onto the yard re. the ratios.. its just not my jurastiction. I am the client. Only once they've built will I jump in & do inside work, but this build is 100% not +me involved from their build/ work pov. If I were to get onto the yard.. how do you think my builder will react?! he would go absolutely fkn mad & I'd ruin the good relationship I have with him.

 

Ok I wasn't concerned before but now I am again. I am now absolutely fkn furious with whoever called the police & stopped tuesdays cement.. maybe they even saw forcast & this prompted the call/ the sod husband was an architect + their cunning xyz together at me over 2 yrs now has been SO damn clever/ calculated, as much as its been atrocious.

 

I havent the money, or the resources, the know-how, the dare, or time to go & buy & then put up covering tarps over what 20 sqM? its impossible.

I am hearing you - what a pest. If I was closer I would come and help with a big tarp system. 

 

Simplest option - call the builder, draw his attention to the heavy rain - and suggest they reduce the water at the batch plant - that will cost him nothing - ask what strength they are using, I'd assume a C20-25 - ask him would he ask them to alter it to say a C30 - over-cost should be about £10 per cube.

 

These things should be no skin off his teeth but give you some peace of mind. Are your founds standard sort of 150-200mm thick or trench fill? I am sure you can look at the ground levels and where water will want to run and come up with a protection strategy. Even for example pallets or logs or cones or something in the middle to let you pitch some tarps out over the concrete and down to a run off which could be as simple as a little culvert roughly scraped to a low point.

 

I think it would be worth getting your planning chappy round and go over things and see what can be done about next door - I would also have a solicitor send them a letter basically outlining that if they continue to cause issues that are unfounded or found to be a waste of police or PA time you will see them in court to re-coup charges.

 

It sounds to me like the dumping of material in the forest upset them, but did you say it transpired the builder had right to do so - i.e. he knew the land owner etc? I would go legal on them. They wouldn't have a house after I had finished with them as they would need to sell it to pay legal costs.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Carrerahill

[ProDave]

I had a very good relationship with our builder, and I am sure if I had discussed with them my concerns about the weather, they would either say don't worry it will be fine, or they would re schedule.  I would not expect them re scheduling to increase the cost in any way.  It is in their interests that the foundations are correct.

[Mr Punter]

If it is trench fill the rain won't hurt.  The rain water will be displaced by the concrete.  More harm will be done by leaving the trenches open.  If it was a floor slab I may want to delay, especially if I was after a polished finish.

[zoothorn]

@Carrerahill thanks for that post ^ I appreciate the support re. my n'bors but the stress & cost of going legal on them, &/ or asking solicitors to get involved is too much for me tho. They know this. I just have to live with them being the way they are- if I show its affecting me, they'll just up the anti a bit more anyway.

 

I'll call my builder tonight & just see tentatively if tarps available I borrow & do myself (but how do I tie them all down??).. but either way its me interfering & I dare not ask if -they- do tarps, let alone mention concrete ratios: its asking for trouble: I am after all a lower caste english & he has been very accomodating with my design & plan to-fro'ing over a long time.

 

I can't see how the island bit the trench is dug around, without being covered too, won't just pour all the rain into the concrete.. which means I need one HUGE 36sqM tarp to cover the whole thing + pins/ pegs: £80-£100? & from where at this late stage?

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

If it is trench fill the rain won't hurt.  The rain water will be displaced by the concrete.  More harm will be done by leaving the trenches open.  If it was a floor slab I may want to delay, especially if I was after a polished finish.

 

But Mr Punter its not this- the rain that's in the trench will be pumped out. Or, if anything left in it will be displaced. I understand this.

 

What is different, is 50-70mm of rain lashing down whilst the concrete is being poured, & the timeframe after its poured > to when it cures. What if 150mm of rain lashes down onto a newly poured foundation? this might well be the case if 3 days of constant rain commences tmrw.

[ToughButterCup]

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

[...]

What if 150 mm of rain lashes down onto a newly poured foundation?

[...]

 

Concrete cures underwater perfectly well.

[Oz07]

I've never know Some one so certain about the weather you should get a job on the news

[zoothorn]

5 minutes ago, AnonymousBosch said:

 

Concrete cures underwater perfectly well.

 

You've said.. but I can't understand how.

[zoothorn]

1 minute ago, Oz07 said:

I've never know Some one so certain about the weather you should get a job on the news

 

Look at the forcast for west wales Oz.. pretty much the worst rain day in 3 years Ive seen forcast.

[Russell griffiths]

3 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

 

It is not great if it will be heavy rain. I am surprised by the number of people who have said it will be fine, concrete works on a water to cement ratio - high surface water will create a very high water ratio - this leads to reduced strength/crumbly surface or it can wash all the cement away and leave just aggregate and fines, so although I am sure it will be fine, it would be very wise to sheet the lot and try your best to stop water getting in on top of the founds. 

 

I would look at low spots etc. once you sheet it can you persuade the water to run away from the founds and not just under the sheet and into the found anyway?

It’s a foundation mate not a finished floor, don’t panic 

[Declan52]

Pour the concrete. Rain will only mark the top 2mm and the rain will sit on top of the concrete. 

Remember concrete cures by chemical reaction it doesn't dry out.

[Russell griffiths]

Mr @zoothorn what are you going to do when it rains when you are getting the timber frame put up, there is nothing you can do to stop it raining in this country, if everybody stopped and waited for it to be sunny nothing would ever get built. 

Your concrete will set perfectly well even with 50mm of water sitting on top, it is a chemical reaction not dependent on having sunshine on it to make it go off. 

If these builders are local they will be very used to your crap weather and will deal with it accordingly. 

[zoothorn]

Just now, Russell griffiths said:

Mr @zoothorn what are you going to do when it rains when you are getting the timber frame put up, there is nothing you can do to stop it raining in this country, if everybody stopped and waited for it to be sunny nothing would ever get built. 

Your concrete will set perfectly well even with 50mm of water sitting on top, it is a chemical reaction not dependent on having sunshine on it to make it go off. 

If these builders are local they will be very used to your crap weather and will deal with it accordingly. 

 

Its wood & it dries, besides, the weatherproof layer will go on asap if its bad weather: its totally different. Water is part of the mix of the concrete, you put too much in the mixer from the bucket & it weakens the mix, no? How is 50-70mm of rain onto & during the pouring out from the big FO mixer into the trench, & pushed about with etc.. any different at all?

[Russell griffiths]

Because you are not mixing the rain in with the concrete

the concrete will come in a truck, from the moment that truck leaves the yard that concrete will start to cure

by the time it gets to your job it will be well on it’s way 

if it takes 30 minutes to unload the truck, and they get it all in by 10.30 you could lay bricks on it 24hours later

that concrete will be bashed into shape with the end of a rake or at best a piece of wood, the finish will be rough at best and bloody atrocious at worst. 

you are not going to jump in the trench and mix the rain in, it will sit on top as the concrete cures the rain will just sit on top like oil sitting on top of water, the two will not combine

if this was a finished floor it would be different. 

[zoothorn]

@Russell griffiths ok thanks a bit more undrstood. Tbh its started & hitting so damn hard right now I'd be very surprised if my builder doesn't call it off.. I mean if its not costing him for the resheduling of the pour, what's the point of slaving away under such abysmal condiitions for hours all 3 of them. I hope for a call.

 

Thanks chaps.

 

 

[Declan52]

11 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

@Russell griffiths ok thanks a bit more undrstood. Tbh its started & hitting so damn hard right now I'd be very surprised if my builder doesn't call it off.. I mean if its not costing him for the resheduling of the pour, what's the point of slaving away under such abysmal condiitions for hours all 3 of them. I hope for a call.

 

Thanks chaps.

 

 

Because of he called of every job due to rain he wouldn't be able to pay all his bills. 

[zoothorn]

No but if he has another 4x jobs on, as probably has, he'd just do the internal xyz stuff of build no.3 instead tho & swap days surely.

[andyscotland]

@zoothorn it may reassure you to know that one major cause of weak concrete is actually allowing it to get too dry during curing. One acceptable method of avoiding that (not especially common in UK as a polythene sheet is cheaper and fine in our climate) is to pond cure the concrete - by building a dam round it and flooding the area above and keeping it flooded for a couple of weeks.

 

Water in the trenches when you pour, or very very heavy rain during the pour, may mix with the concrete and make the mix to wet. As soon as you stop moving it though it will very quickly form a skin and then cure as expected. This of course is why you never pour cement mixer/tool rinses down the drain as they will quite happily solidify in the u-bend etc.

 

You do ideally want to avoid fast flowing water over the surface as that may drag cement / fines out of the top of the mix and make it flaky. Not the end of the world for foundations tho unless extreme. If it's trench fill and you have a full-on river flowing over the site you may actually be better sticking timber/earth round the trench edges to form a small pond and slow down the flow at surface level. If you're just covering the bottom of the trench any water that gets in after isn't going to hurt.

 

You've said a few times your builder is experienced and well respected, I'd be inclined to trust him. He will have worked in the rain before.

 

58 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

No but if he has another 4x jobs on, as probably has, he'd just do the internal xyz stuff of build no.3 instead tho & swap days surely.

 

There will probably be a reason he's pulled off those to do yours tho. They may be waiting on materials arriving / plaster drying / concrete curing / trades turning up / whatever so not automatically easy to swap them about. Few (good) builders just jump between sites whenever they feel like it.

 

[zoothorn]

@andyscotland grateful for that post Andy, that makes more sense & calms me a bit.. I suppose the assumption might be then that excess water is more a problem than maybe it is, still difficult to understand thios chemical process thing. Actually the forcast has got a wee bit more positive/ huge lump was to be sat over wales all day but possibly now moving thru quicker/ poss even by lunchtime.. so if the wagon comes PM, I might get lucky. But sods law it'll come 8AM & be done by 11AM. 3 hours maybe? that's a vague guess. Big day in zoot's life tmrw you see in fact.. an everyday thing for most of you guys I'm sure.