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Unfortunately my day job took me to the scene today - saw the community coming together, the damage caused and had the unenviable task of talking to the survivors. Truly harrowing experiences - Home in the bosom of my family and cradling a large glass of Red. 30 years of dealing with death and destruction on a daily basis, and still the bar gets higher!! Appreciate those around you tonight and spare a thought for those sleeping in the various churches and sports centres. Goodnight PW.

I thought I would put a post together for those that are looking for windows, replacement or new build. As someone who deals with final order placing / final quote discussions. One of the things that crosses my desk on regular basis, is that the "other supplier" is more cost effective. Which leads me to ask myself "more cost effective against what" are you comparing apples for apples? When I ask people to compare, what we generally explain is to look at the following (see below) if they are not willing to supply a copy of the quote without prices. Product - is the product similar. For example are you comparing a Timber Aluminium cladded window with a Timber Aluminium cladded window? Glazing - Is the glazing on offer from both suppliers comparable? Is it double glazed v's triple glazed for example or is it float glass v's toughened or laminate? Check that doors have toughened/laminated glazing Check that windows within 300mm of a door have toughened/laminated glazing Check that windows below 800mm from the finish floor have toughened/laminated glazing Check that windows that are 1400mm in height or above for toughened/laminated glazing. Most suppliers will start to consider toughened / laminated from 1400mm onwards, some will still be float glass. Check triple glazed glass units. Some suppliers will only toughen the inner and outer panes and leave the middle pane as float glass, others will toughen all 3 panes (I recommend all 3 panes as toughened) when required. Why? quick example is from experience, a customer in the north west of Scotland had the middle pane as float glass in french doors, the doors are recessed with wall on either side. It effectively became a wind tunnel. What happened is during high winds, the door sashes had that much wind pressure constantnly, that the door sash was pushed away from the frame slightly and a rattle effect occurred (only thing I could think would cause this to happen). As a result the middle pane (float glass) shattered. This required the whole sash to be replaced, as the glass was glued into the frame on that particular product. Timber - Is the timber comparable, are both using spruce/larch/oak/pine etc.? Are any of the products finger jointed as standard (which is more cost effective versus fixed timber, but not as aesphetically pleasing). Is the timber cut from from one section of wood or is it individually glue laminated timber? Ug values - A 0.5Ug can be quoted by suppliers but the costs vary dramatically. One of the reasons for this can be the glass make up and the gas that is being used. Some quotes won't tell the gas being used but it's safe to assume that if it's 48mm glazing it is Argon. Pay attention to the spacer distance also, not for cost but if the spacer is above 18mm, convection can occur of the gas filling (gas moves around in the unit). Hinging - Are the hinges concealed or are they exposed? Door Hinging - Pay close attention as suppliers will have quoted standard framing on doors, others may have increased the widths of the jambs to increase the space available at the hinging for plastering behind. RAL Colours externally - are the quoted RAL colours the same? Internal colours - have they quoted the same? Some will offer the standard colours such as a clear lacquer, others will have them painted - does this have any impact on price comparison. Sizes - have any of the units been split, due to not being able to achieve the size required? Some suppliers will not be able to do large sizes, others will be. Look out for compromises. Don't always look at the end figure and immediately reject a quote as being to high, compared to the others. Most suppliers will have the supply price first, then additional items such as window cills, compriband, membrane, installation etc. which are optional to the quote and not necessarily required but may be included in the total cost at the end. Most self builders like to take on the mantra of doing the whole build, others would like to leave this to the supplier or builder and or source their own materials if supply only. What is being offered with the installation service, are the installation options / costs comparible to each other? Who takes responsibility for the windows upon arrival? Generally speaking most suppliers who are installing, should be taken responsibility from the moment the windows leave the factory, to the moment the windows/doors have been installed, sign off. If supply only, the responsibilitygenerally passes to the client once the offload commences. So it is important to document the windows before offload, during offload and once offloaded. The manufacturer will normally have documentation / pictures before departing the factory, it makes life easier on whether a claim with the haulage company or whether a claim with the supplier is required (both should go to the supplier who should deal with it). Warranty - how long is the warranty, what does it cover? Last but not least, is the quote comparible? Have the suppliers referenced things the same way or are have the drawings been scaled and then referenced by the supplier (this happens a lot when no window schedule exists)? A lot of architects don't create window schedules for some reason (one the major parts of a build and most costly aspects) and problems of missing windows can be encountered, due to the elevations not always showing "hidden" windows which can be seen on floor plans. Some suppliers can miss this, which then impacts that quote. Hopefully some people find this useful, of not apologies for the long read

The title of this thread reads exactly like an advert for this company, any chance it could be edited? I'm not a fan of unsolicited adverts, plus it's against forum policy, unless we've decided to change it recently. If it's not an advert, then can we just lose the web site title and the hyperlink to the manufacturer, please, as all that's doing is gaining them the oxygen of publicity every time search bots pick it up.

Very true, and, given the stress that has already been placed on all the London emergency services over the past three months, I cannot begin to imagine what some of them must be going through. I have a couple of friends who were/are police officers, including the really great officer who attended the accident I had a few years ago, where a pedestrian runner crossed the dual carriageway in front of my car and was very nearly killed. The effect on me at the time was traumatic, as when the casualty was airlifted away this police officer had the job of letting me know that he wasn't expected to live. By pure good fortune the casualty did survive, albeit with major life-changing injuries, and that police officer has kept in touch with me, not because he has a duty to, but out of the kindness of his heart. We've become good friends over the years since, and he's told me some pretty grim tales of the things he's had to deal with as a traffic officer. Frankly I have no idea how he copes, apart from his (pretty black) sense of humour.

A truly horrific day, and one that will stay with bereaved families, survivors and members of the emergency services for a long time to come. We've already seen pictures of the effect today has had on fire fighters. A lot of gruesome work lies ahead for them and the Police as they move into recovery and identification.

I think that one of the main problems seems to be an almost total disconnect in the way that fire safety has been addressed. The building, as originally designed, used the compartmented safe zone system, where the main structure of the building was designed to be fire resistant, with each flat, and each floor, being a safe zone in the event of a fire INSIDE the building. When it was designed this was a good approach, because the OUTSIDE of the building was non-flammable, so a fire could only, realistically be inside the building. Fitting fire doors and giving advice to residents to stay inside their flats in the even of a fire that was outside their front door was sensible. The floors and walls of the building were pretty fire resistant, and by keeping residents in their flats they wouldn't need to provide lots of fire escapes. This meant that a single staircase would be OK for several hundred residents, as they wouldn't all be trying to get down it at once, with firefighters trying to get up at the same time. That all changed the day they decided to fit flammable cladding on the outside of the building. That dramatically changed the overall fire risk, as has been shown in many similar facade fires around the world, going back perhaps as long as a decade ago. However, no one seemed to look at the changes the cladding made to the overall fire safety plan for the building, something that, in the light of the common knowledge of facade fires and the speed with which they are known to spread, seem to me to be criminally negligent. For the residents to still have been given advice to stay inside their flats, even whilst the fire was raging outside (which is what they were reportedly told to do when they phoned 999) was equally negligent, and whoever gave that advice to the emergency services needs to be held to account for it. On completion of this refurbishment there must have been a fire safety inspection. I was responsible for a building refurbishment years ago and well remember the mass of data that was needed with regard to demonstrating that all fire safety requirements were in place and working before the building could be deemed fit to occupy, so I am absolutely certain the same would have been done here. Once more this brings into question the effectiveness with which building regulation compliance inspections are carried out, fire safety being a building regs issue. Notwithstanding the possibility that a domestic appliance may have been the source of this fire, the question is "Would the entire block have caught fire if that appliance had caught fire before the external cladding was fitted?" I very strongly suspect that it would not have, and there may well be information from previous incidents during the 40 years that the building had been in use before the cladding was fitted that could support this. I see a fair few potential prosecutions in the offing, not that these will be of any consolation to the families and friends of those killed, or the residents that have been burned out of their homes.

Yes, dead easy. There is a DHW mode that can be activated by a dry contact between the 12V common and the DHW connection. The diagram I drew up a while ago, and posted here shows the connections:

I have had a look around all my different windows. The two single fixed pane ones are the only ones that have the cladding in one piece going under the render. Where I have two panes, one opening and one fixed next to each other, the fixed pane has been done like my stained glass window, with a separate trim around just the glass. I just need to check with Rationell how that trim is secured. In a previous house, we had externally fitted UPVC doors and windows. We had an attempted break in where the perpetrators removed the external beading, but removing the glass stuck in with double sided foam tape defeated them. The police logged it as "criminal damage" rather than attempted burglary. So I am not concerned about security. I documented my search for windows on a previous forum. I had quotes from about half a dozen quality window suppliers. It was an easy choice as Rationel were the cheapest and almost the best. Only Internorm had a very slightly better Uw value, but at twice the price and the most expensive by a long way. All I wanted was good 3G windows with aluminium cladding. Whether they were internally or externally fitted glass was not a consideration. I have to say I am very pleased with the very simple crisp external and internal detail of the Rationel windows.

Wholesalers destocking in preperation for the next down turn!

I have exactly the set you linked to. Cant fault it.

Cirencester. South West? Pah, Devon and Cornwall are proper SW! but to your point; its far too common an experience. I had exactly the same from an online electrical supplier recently.

I got the previous version of this (Eco Rotary Laser 400 Builders Set) - doesn't do the grading at an angle piece but can't find the original text for the Eco 400 - might consider selling as really I only need it for tiling now and may go for a small cross line level as it will be easier. Drop me a message if interested - everything is all in the box and in perfect working order. Happy to sell for a good price to a forum member. Comes with glasses, tripod, charger, staff etc. http://www.laserlevelshop.co.uk/spot-on-rotary-laser-level-400-contractor's-set---promotion~874?gclid=CjwKEAjwvYPKBRCYr5GLgNCJ_jsSJABqwfw7JTqJX6u4EL0glPtkSY-TD4ZAjAKy40rgMNU0xjkK8BoCGEnw_wcB

Ah, ok, thanks. I guess the wheelchair situation is one we should all consider. Even if it's not applicable now you never know what's around the corner.

If it is only for landscaping I wouldn't worry too much. Essentially buy the cheapest one you can find that comes with a receiver and >50m range.

Bloody hell, that's a quick sketch

@Dee can you sketch a quick floor plan ..?

You can buy straight lengths of 110mm pipe without collars, might be easier to fit ! The collar then becomes a double collar and these can be bought separately. Regarding the route of the pipe. If it were me fitting the pipe I'd want to turn the Tee in the soil stack until the inlet points directly at the location of the new loo. How big a gap have you got between the two sets of joists? It may not be big enough to get the "correct" fall. You may have to compromise and just install the pipe with what ever fall you have!

I also tried to deal with Styrene.biz. Lots of bounced emails and not much action. What a waste of time. Why have a web site advertising your wares when you don't actually sell the stuff.

I wondered where you were going with that post until I realised you hadn't capitalised the S in swedes

Don't notch the underside of the upper joist, notch the top of the lower one. 130mm ? What are you measuring . ?

Pipe should be 110mm..?? Looks much deeper or is that an illusion ..?