ASHP + UFH quote

[Jenni]

Hello.

I'm planning on using a company to provide my entire system, for the purpose of my confidence that it will all fit together well and work efficiently without causing me disappointment. I don't feel confident to go it alone as such. 

 

Obviously a lot of ££ at stake here, and I'm not one for blindly believing the sales blurb, so I'm hoping clever people on here can cast an eye over my quote and let me know if anything stands out as seeming problematic.

 

My build is a barn conversion, single storey, long and narrow. Nominally 3 bedroom, but currently just me and partner (no kids on horizon).

 

This quote is from NuHeat.

ASHP = 

Your system price - What's included?

Qty	Item Description
1	NIBE F2040-8 (typically capable of heating a property with 7kW heat loss at design operating conditions, in compliance with MCS standards) air source heat pump kit, charge pump, and associated fittings.
1	Docking assembly for air source heat pump with Nu-Heat hot water cylinder, buffer tank and supplementary electric heating
1	EnergyPro® 300 litre unvented stainless steel HP cylinder for use with NIBE ASHP, including fittings and G3 kit. (Please note that the cylinder warranty does not cover private water supplies, e.g. boreholes. Please speak to your Account Manager if this required.)
1	100 litre (stackable type C) buffer tank assembly with four tappings and one immersion tapping, with immersion heater
1	Electric metering kit for one single phase heat pump and two additional immersion heaters
1	Includes delivery of heat pump and tank by carrier to UK mainland only

 

Support Option

SUPPAK N1(R)HP Heat pump system design and supply (which must be invoiced to the Homeowner), with a comprehensive Nu-heat MCS Customer Handover Pack, free Technical Support and one on-site commissioning visit by a Nu-Heat Engineer. The visit will include the system handover, MCS administration and certification, and warranty activation. Following successful commissioning, Nu-Heat will provide MCS documentation to support eligible customers in obtaining relevant Government funding through DECC. The heat pump installation shall be managed by a formal Subcontract Agreement with the customer's own plumber and electrician for their respective works. Installers of the system shall sign and return Nu-Heat's Sub-Contract Agreement before any installation work commences, and adhere to the MCS and RECC standards. MCS Certification will be produced by Nu-Heat.

 

 

	Item Description
	Domestic hot water loop for use with Nu-Heat's EnergyPro HP cylinders and NIBE F2040 heat pump.
	15m Pre-insulated, flexible, flow and return pipe (DN25) for installation underground with heat pump connectors

 

UFH = 

Your system price - What's included?

Qty	Item Description
1	Wilo Para RS25/6 pump (EuP compliant) with valves
2	Isolator pack for Optiflo manifolds
1	System expansion vessel
1	8-port Optiflo manifold module with zone valves, flow meters, isolating valves, temperature gauges, pressure gauge and wiring centre - view details
1	7-port Optiflo manifold module with zone valves, flow meters, isolating valves, temperature gauges, pressure gauge and wiring centre - view details
8	Dial thermostat - view details
1	Dial thermostat and remote sensor for wet rooms
1068	Metres of 14mm Fastflo® heating tube with oxygen diffusion barrier - view details
30	14x2 Eurofitting nut, tail & olive and pipe bend support
135	m² SM14 floor components - 14mm Fastflo® tube tie, screed expansion edge strip and pipe staples
1	Commissioning accessories pack
1	Design specification, manuals and documentation - view details
1	Delivery to UK mainland only following receipt of full payment and acceptance of CAD drawings.

 

Your input / feedback would be welcome. Thank you. 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

So how much insulation are you fitting under the floor/pipes.

This is important as otherwise heat will just conduct downwards.

[Jenni]

Floor construction designed to achieve 0.20W/m²K with 150mm RC35 power-floated reinforced concrete slab with 1 layer of mesh reinforcement, on 70mm Celotex insulation with 20mm Celotex GA3000 upstand to perimeter or external walls, on 1200 gauge polythene dpm, on blinding, on 150mm well consolidated hardcore.

 

Also meant to say, barn is 140 sq m.

[PeterW]

So that floor construction is bare building regs... lose 50mm of RC35 and add it to the insulation layer to make it 120mm

 

I expect the Nu-Heat quote is about £18k..?? £8k for Heat Pump and install, £3 for the tank, £5k for the UFH and £2k for the bits and pieces ..?

 

Who’s done the heat loss calcs for the building ..??

[Jenni]

I believe the slab has to be that thick, part of building structural integrity. Sub base is in now so that is all set. This was all underway / committed to before I found BuildHub, I think I know a little more now and may have done things differently if starting again, but I don't have full control of the process, so this is where I'm at to go forward from.

 

Architect organised the heat loss calcs, though I'm not sure if he did it himself or sub'd it out.

 

ASHP + UVC just shy of £10.5k ex VAT.

UFH £3.5k.

neither including install. I'll have to organise professional for the heat pump and tank. But will do as much of the rest as possible ourselves.

[newhome]

4 hours ago, Jenni said:

ASHP + UVC just shy of £10.5k ex VAT.

 UFH £3.5k.

neither including install. I'll have to organise professional for the heat pump and tank. But will do as much of the rest as possible ourselves.

 

At those prices I would want to be going down the RHI route so you’d need the MCS install and documentation. How much are they charging for the ‘Support Option’ or is that included in 10.5k? Ideally you should approach an MCS installer and ask them to quote for the whole job including the supply. As a comparison I was quoted 14.5k for an ASHP, UVC, install and MCS paperwork (including VAT). That was for an 11.2KW Mitsubishi Ecodan ASHP and 300 litre UVC installed as a retrofit. I didn’t go for it as I thought it should be nearer to 10k. 

 

My concern with a split supply / install / commission paperwork approach like you are suggesting is who is responsible for providing the warranty / support if something goes wrong. You may end up in a ‘not my issue’ scenario. If you get someone to do the whole thing that argument disappears, or does the ‘support option’ cover all of that?

 

The other consideration with fitting an ASHP is the availability of the installer to provide a responsive call out service if something goes wrong. When I was struggling to get a quote the Energy Saving Trust told me to cast the net wider and ask for quotes from installers much further afield. My concern with that was getting someone to come out and fix it if it went wrong. No one wants to be without heating in the middle of winter. 

 

For the UFH ask Wunda for a quote. 

 

[Ferdinand]

Payment of the whole thing before delivery looks questionable.

 

Can you make that match their cost profile more closely?

And I would want a retention until after commissioning and proven correct functioning.

[newhome]

Another thought. Are you eligible for the VAT reclaim? If so a full supply and fit sounds more attractive from a cash flow perspective as you will only pay 5% (reclaimable) instead of 20% on the materials only (also reclaimable but still another couple of grand to find initially). 

[newhome]

16 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Payment of the whole thing before delivery looks questionable.

 

Can you make that match their cost profile more closely?

And I would want a retention until after commissioning and proven correct functioning.

 

I guess £100 deposit on a credit card would cover that off to a degree but I wouldn’t pay upfront without that protection. 

[ProDave]

There are an awful lot of tanks in that quote. A HW tank, a buffer tank or 2 and another one I don't understand it's function at all (the first one)  I would be wondering if they really know what they are designing?

[Alexphd1]

Yeah it all depends on the cost of the mcs option. I have never seen a 7 and 8 port manifold needed for 140m2 floor area?

[Jeremy Harris]

@Jenni

 

The floor heat loss for a heating demand of 7 kW and the pretty poor under floor insulation level you've specified is going to be high, and waste a fair bit of the energy that you put into the UFH.

 

I don't know your floor area, but if you are expecting, say, 30 W/m² from the UFH then you're going to waste around 16% of your heat from the UFH in just heating the soil underneath the house.  If you're OK with wasting that much then that's fine, but I'd suggest that an increase in the depth of insulation will make a substantial difference to your heating bill and pay for itself pretty quickly.

[SteamyTea]

Jeremy, floor area is 140m²

[PeterW]

9 hours ago, Jenni said:

I believe the slab has to be that thick, part of building structural integrity. Sub base is in now so that is all set. This was all underway / committed to before I found BuildHub, I think I know a little more now and may have done things differently if starting again, but I don't have full control of the process, so this is where I'm at to go forward from.

 

Architect organised the heat loss calcs, though I'm not sure if he did it himself or sub'd it out.

 

ASHP + UVC just shy of £10.5k ex VAT.

UFH £3.5k.

neither including install. I'll have to organise professional for the heat pump and tank. But will do as much of the rest as possible ourselves.

 

Walk away...

 

Those numbers are mental !! Same from Mitsubishi with a pre plumbed tank and all the toys is around£6.5k - £10k would be an MCS install.

 

There is about £1,800 of materials there in the UFH at most. There is also a big design fail - you cannot run 2 manifolds from 1 pump in this set up, you won't get proper circulation.

 

So for comparison - Wunda Trade 

180m Kit - £1012

Control Box - £54

Actuators - £183 (Self Balancing)

Thermostats - £90

 

So thats £1340 all in, including auto balancing valves.

 

I don't think the comment about slab and structural integrity is correct - Its a fully floating floor slab independent of the building structure so there is no need for it to be 150mm. 100mm with rebar (or fibres) would be preferable, and tbh you need to get more insulation in there somehow. Go back to the architect...

 

 

[ProDave]

9 hours ago, Jenni said:

I believe the slab has to be that thick, part of building structural integrity. Sub base is in now so that is all set. This was all underway / committed to before I found BuildHub, I think I know a little more now and may have done things differently if starting again, but I don't have full control of the process, so this is where I'm at to go forward from.

 

Architect organised the heat loss calcs, though I'm not sure if he did it himself or sub'd it out.

 

ASHP + UVC just shy of £10.5k ex VAT.

UFH £3.5k.

neither including install. I'll have to organise professional for the heat pump and tank. But will do as much of the rest as possible ourselves.

To be honest I would want the INSTALLER specifying what to buy, so you have some confidence he knows how to install and comission it.

 

If you just buy a load of kit and get someone to install it, and it does not work as expected, then the installer will blame the kit, and the supplier will blame the installer.......

[Jeremy Harris]

12 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Jeremy, floor area is 140m²

 

Thanks, missed that.  That increases the floor temperature, and increases the heat loss to the ground to about 750 W, from the previous estimate of about 678 W.

 

That heat loss power is as much as we put into our house of 130m² to heat it most of the time in winter!

[jack]

10 minutes ago, Alexphd1 said:

I have never seen a 7 and 8 port manifold needed for 140m2 floor area?

 

Our slab is around 150m² and we have an 8 port manifold. All loops are just short of 100m (one is around 80m, from memory) at 200mm spacing.

[SteamyTea]

750 W is quite a lot.  Would heat all my DHW, 6 times over, every day.

[PeterW]

5 minutes ago, jack said:

 

Our slab is around 150m² and we have an 8 port manifold. All loops are just short of 100m (one is around 80m, from memory) at 200mm spacing.

 

Yep but this needs a 7 and an 8..!!! 15 ports for 140sqm, and looks like 8 zones.

[dpmiller]

11 minutes ago, jack said:

 

Our slab is around 150m² and we have an 8 port manifold. All loops are just short of 100m (one is around 80m, from memory) at 200mm spacing.

conversely our GF is around 145m2 and I've a 12-port (inc 1x for the upstairs bathrooms) although I based this on a pretty conservative design off LoopCAD.

[jack]

2 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Yep but this needs a 7 and an 8..!!! 15 ports for 140sqm, and looks like 8 zones.

 

Ah, sorry, missed it was an "and"!

[le-cerveau]

Dial thermostats?  come on!

 

As everybody else says you can source all the components for far less.

 

The DHW tank is Class C so heat loss will be a factor, need to be planned for, especially as we are having hotter summers when it is a concern.

[joth]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

There are an awful lot of tanks in that quote. A HW tank, a buffer tank or 2 and another one I don't understand it's function at all (the first one)  I would be wondering if they really know what they are designing?

I think there's just 2 tanks, UVC and buffer. The first one (second line item) is a "Docking assembly for" [...air source heat pump, hot water cylinder, buffer tank ...]   right ?

 

@Jenni

There is no doubt an endless chorus you can do it more cheaply if you DIY   but FWIW in case this is of help: I'm in the same camp of wanting someone to own specifying and supplying and installing the whole system, to meet my requirement spec, as my limited time is better invested elsewhere on the project. To that end, in case it is helpful I've been given an initial ballpark figure or £11k+vat for basically the same MCS based ASHP manifest as you have (including with NIBE heat pump). I'm still shopping around, I really need someone that can do heat calcs per PHPP format. This is in SE England (Herts), as with everything else in the project I am sure that has a bearing.

 

 

[Redoctober]

42 minutes ago, ProDave said:

To be honest I would want the INSTALLER specifying what to buy, so you have some confidence he knows how to install and comission it.

 

If you just buy a load of kit and get someone to install it, and it does not work as expected, then the installer will blame the kit, and the supplier will blame the installer.......

 

@Jenni We had our UFH and ASHP / Tank etc supplied and fitted by the one company for the same reasons you have mentioned. He was MSC certified, allowing us to claim RHI which currently runs at £220 per quarter.

For comparison purposes, our coverage was 160sq metres, with UFH upstairs and downstairs. The ASHP is a 5 KW Mitsubishi eco unit & our tank was 170 litre. - total cost as of last year - supplied and fitted - £13600 - No VAT payable

[ProDave]

25 minutes ago, Redoctober said:

 

@Jenni We had our UFH and ASHP / Tank etc supplied and fitted by the one company for the same reasons you have mentioned. He was MSC certified, allowing us to claim RHI which currently runs at £220 per quarter.

For comparison purposes, our coverage was 160sq metres, with UFH upstairs and downstairs. The ASHP is a 5 KW Mitsubishi eco unit & our tank was 170 litre. - total cost as of last year - supplied and fitted - £13600 - No VAT payable

That's expensive. My friend up here paid £11K for supply and fit of that same system, might even have been a bigger tank than that, and I thought he paid a steep price.

 

You will get £6K back in your RHI payments so the net cost was £7600.