FD30 doors and MVHR: a contradiction?

[ToughButterCup]

Is it me, or does the requirement to fit fire rated doors upstairs (in our case FD30) mean we can't have MVHR? (Because of the gap under the door for the MVHR). Please tell me I'm wrong. Please tell me I'm overthinking!

 

Reviewing current threads on and around the subject of fire doors, nobody seems to have pointed out that MVHR and FD30 doors are incompatible. Yet common sense says they ought to have door auto closers on them (but that requirement has been removed @PeterW here ) , but it seems obvious to me that a fire door with a gap under  it is about as useful, well,  as a chocolate fire door.

 

I've reviewed Approved Document B, and the table on page 64 seems to suggest we could use an FD20. Both our bedrooms have a suicide door in them, (with a Juliet)  so I suppose it might not be too bad.

 

[PeterW]

Smoke doesn’t tend to spread under doors and as such an FD30 is purely there as a safety feature so that you can “survive” for that 30 minute period. In this sort of scenario you would most likely have put a towel over the door gap etc and called 999

 

There is a school of thought that MVHR should have a smoke alarm trigger to shut the system down in the event of a fire - I’d suggest this is a good idea but also having intumescent seals around the ducts from high risk areas would be more appropriate. 

[ProDave]

Why do you need FD30 doors to the bedrooms? is it 3 storey?  My only FD30 door is through to the garage and I want that one to be as well sealed as I can. As well as the intumescent strips it has draught proofing strips as well on all 4 sides.

[carlb40]

If you want to create a seal on the bottom of the door?  You can buy acoustic drop down seals that get routed into the bottom of the door. When the door is open it retracts, then when you close the door it drops down to seal  the gap. 

 

[redtop]

On 26/03/2019 at 15:27, PeterW said:

Smoke doesn’t tend to spread under doors and as such an FD30 is purely there as a safety feature so that you can “survive” for that 30 minute period. In this sort of scenario you would most likely have put a towel over the door gap etc and called 999

 

There is a school of thought that MVHR should have a smoke alarm trigger to shut the system down in the event of a fire - I’d suggest this is a good idea but also having intumescent seals around the ducts from high risk areas would be more appropriate. 

sorry don't understand how strips would work / how you would fix them?

[carlb40]

16 minutes ago, redtop said:

sorry don't understand how strips would work / how you would fix them?

The bottom of the door has a groove machined into it, the drop seal is fixed into the groove. On the hinge side of the door there is a peg that protrudes and as soon as you close the door, the peg gets pushed in and the seal drops.

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by carlb40

[Oz07]

Not much good for mvhr a drop down seal. 

Check out bwf fire regs @AnonymousBosch think 10mm under a door is within spec. As said though I'd be questioning why you have fd30 in your 1st floor

[MJNewton]

On 26/03/2019 at 15:27, PeterW said:

There is a school of thought that MVHR should have a smoke alarm trigger to shut the system down in the event of a fire - I’d suggest this is a good idea [...]

 

Not wanting to divert the thread, but I've just done exactly this with an Aico smoke alarm relay base and Shelly 1PM smart relay and have been very pleased with the result. Not only does the power to the MVHR get cut in the event of the smoke alarms going off but it also send me an SMS and app alerts within a few seconds to say this has happened. Furthermore, with the smart relay being 'in series' with the power supply it logs power consumption which will be of interest over time (well, to me as I like stats and graphs!):

 

    

 

I do wonder how I'll react if I ever get that text! 

Edited December 17, 2019 by MJNewton

[jamiehamy]

27 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

Not wanting to divert the thread, but I've just done exactly this with an Aico smoke alarm relay base and Shelly 1PM smart relay and have been very pleased with the result. Not only does the power to the MVHR get cut in the event of the smoke alarms going off but it also send me an SMS and app alerts within a few seconds to say this has happened. Furthermore, with the smart relay being 'in series' with the power supply it logs power consumption which will be of interest over time (well, to me as I like stats and graphs!):

 

    

 

I do wonder how I'll react if I ever get that text! 

If I mess up in the kitchen (which doesn't have an opening window) and the smoke alarm goes off, I switch the boost on which usually sorts it very quickly. If the mhrv switched off in those scenarios, we'd a bit stuck! I'd def like to see the consumption tho, very smart. 

[MJNewton]

Oh yes - same here. If the alarm is indicating that my dinner's ready (hope the wife isn't reading this!) then I can press the hush button on the smoke alarm and the MVHR will turn back on. The functionality is really for when we're not in the house and, to be honest, it's the text alert that I value most rather than the power disabling even thought it was the latter that was the original motivation.

Edited December 17, 2019 by MJNewton

[Carrerahill]

45 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

Not wanting to divert the thread, but I've just done exactly this with an Aico smoke alarm relay base and Shelly 1PM smart relay and have been very pleased with the result. Not only does the power to the MVHR get cut in the event of the smoke alarms going off but it also send me an SMS and app alerts within a few seconds to say this has happened. Furthermore, with the smart relay being 'in series' with the power supply it logs power consumption which will be of interest over time (well, to me as I like stats and graphs!):

 

    

 

I do wonder how I'll react if I ever get that text! 

I have just been looking at these, the one thing I am interested on is where is the program held? Take for example Casmabi lighting controls, they use a bluetooth mesh network and are controlled by a device with bluetooth basically. Offices that I have seen Casambi used for lighting control have iPad's mounted into special wall mount cases, so you have essentially a very powerful control faceplate, you can have as many as you want and those trusted in the office can even have the pin and control the lights from their tablet or phone. But the scene program is on the device, so if you were to have no internet Casambi would continue to work. 

 

I have a couple of WiFi sockets and if they lose wifi that is it, I have lost control and the program is held on a cloud so they won't even do what they are meant to do until wifi is restored, so what I am looking for is something like the Shelly complete with power meter and whatnot, but is less internet reliant.

 

 

[MJNewton]

The Shelly is dependent on wifi for external access, however the use of the Internet is optional as it has its own built-in web server that can be accessed on the local WLAN (or directly if set up as an access point), and use of the cloud can be disabled entirely. Simple functions like controlling power output based on a physical trigger input, time-based schedules, overtemperature/overcurrent etc are performed locally and don't have any external dependencies (other than to configure them in the first place). For text alerts (and, I think, app alerts) an Internet connection is required.

Edited December 17, 2019 by MJNewton

[Carrerahill]

12 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

The Shelly is dependent on wifi for external access, however the use of the Internet is optional as it has its own built-in web server that can be accessed on the local WLAN (or directly if set up as an access point), and use of the cloud can be disabled entirely. Simple functions like controlling power output based on a physical trigger input, time-based schedules, overtemperature/overcurrent etc are performed locally and don't have any external dependencies (other than to configure them in the first place). For text alerts (and, I think, app alerts) an Internet connection is required.

Perfect, what I wanted to know - I have not issue with using the net, I just want redundancy so that I am not relying on a cloud server to control my house. I also note it will run on 12V, so I could even use it within a car. So I can have it connected to the net, but if the connection goes down it will still run it's schedule which is good to know, so where is that web server hosted, within the actual Shelly - if I have multiple does that mean they essentially act standalone albeit linked up when they are on the wifi?

 

They are far cheaper than the commercial systems (Casambi is really meant for lighting but they are £60 each) so makes it more affordable for just playing around too. So which version are you using there? I see on Amazon a "Shelly 1PM Wi-Fi Relay Switch Watt-o-meter - that one? 

 

I see you can have temp triggers and all sorts, so what sensors do you hook them up with or do they have built in temp sensors, humidity?

 

I think I will buy myself a Christmas present (another one!).

 

I'll keep digging, someone no doubt has videos on YouTube. I guess you can customise the interface so one could be MVHR, some for lighting, some for heating and skin up the buttons so that it looks like a polished controls interface?

 

 

 

[MJNewton]

We should probably take this to another thread in another sub-forum (is a moderator able to cut this diversion off an dump it in a new thread?) but my knowledge will be largely exhausted in one post anyway...

 

37 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

Perfect, what I wanted to know - I have not issue with using the net, I just want redundancy so that I am not relying on a cloud server to control my house. I also note it will run on 12V, so I could even use it within a car. So I can have it connected to the net, but if the connection goes down it will still run it's schedule which is good to know, so where is that web server hosted, within the actual Shelly

 

Yes - if you wanted to manually control them without Internet/cloud access you'd just access them on, say, http://192.168.1.231/, http://192.168.1.232 etc and they'd give a basic - but functional - web interface (without the fancy images that are served up from the cloud to the smartphone app / 'full fat' web browser experience).

 

Quote

if I have multiple does that mean they essentially act standalone albeit linked up when they are on the wifi?

 

Yes, they act standalone - the app/cloud/web interface just brings them all into one control panel and adds additional functionality that couldn't be done standalone (e.g. schedules based on sunset/sunrise which requires an Internet connection to determine each day) and allows interaction between them e.g. an action on one device can trigger something on another.

 

Quote

They are far cheaper than the commercial systems. (Casambi is really meant for lighting but they are £60 each) so makes it more affordable for just playing around too.

 

Yes, very cheap. Made in Europe (by Allterco Robotics in Bulgaria) and some devices are UL certified so gives some confidence about their use despite the cost. They are open platforms too so can be reflashed with 3rd party firmware if desired.

 

Quote

So which version are you using there? I see on Amazon a "Shelly 1PM Wi-Fi Relay Switch Watt-o-meter - that one? 

 

I've got a Shelly 1PM controlling power to the MVHR (and smoke alarm interaction), a Shelly 1 running on 12v acting as a 'smart' boost trigger (for a future project) and a Shelly 2.5 controlling a couple of outdoor lighting circuits.

 

Quote

I see you can have temp triggers and all sorts, so what sensors do you hook them up with or do they have built in temp sensors, humidity?

 

They sell a dedicated 'humidity and temperature' device that I haven't tried, and they are currently developing an interface for the smart relays like mine so that you can plug 1-wire sensors into them. They also do a battery-powered flood detector which could be useful. 

 

Quote

I think I will buy myself a Christmas present (another one!).

 

Do it! I bought my first one (the Shelly 2.5 that I've connected to my outside lights) more out of curiosity and because I was after a dusk-to-dawn timer anyway so figured I could try one with 'added features' for giggles. Whilst I thought the novelty would wear off I've actually been very impressed by the responsiveness, reliability and continuous product development that I've now got three and expect to buy a bunch more where needs arise.

 

Quote

I'll keep digging, someone no doubt has videos on YouTube. I guess you can customise the interface so one could be MVHR, some for lighting, some for heating and skin up the buttons so that it looks like a polished controls interface?

 

There is some limited customisation with the GUI in terms of changing names, uploading photos etc:

 

 

I know others have used 3rd party offerings like Home Assistant,  OpenHAB etc to take things to the next level but it's not something I've got any experience of. I've got an extension to finish and a 2.5yr old daughter to fill my time before I get chance to go down that avenue!

Edited December 18, 2019 by MJNewton

[MJNewton]

50 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

I see on Amazon a "Shelly 1PM Wi-Fi Relay Switch Watt-o-meter - that one? 

 

I missed this bit - cheaper to buy direct from the manufacturer in Bulgaria e.g. the Shelly 1PM is ~£12.75 + £4 P&P bought direct compared to the £23.49 via Amazon. I know they've got some delivery issues at the moment though as I think they're still catching up with Black Friday sales and getting caught up in Christmas post issues (I think I read they're shipping a thousand devices a day at the moment).

Edited December 18, 2019 by MJNewton

[Carrerahill]

24 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

I missed this bit - cheaper to buy direct from the manufacturer in Bulgaria e.g. the Shelly 1PM is ~£12.75 + £4 P&P bought direct compared to the £23.49 via Amazon. I know they've got some delivery issues at the moment though as I think they're still catching up with Black Friday sales and getting caught up in Christmas post issues (I think I read they're shipping a thousand devices a day at the moment).

Thanks, I have just ordered a Shelly 1 and a 1PM.

 

 

[MJNewton]

I hope you're not disappointed! Give me a shout if you run into any issues - there's always the danger that you hear all the positives about the final outcome and not the inevitable niggles and head-scratching that inevitably exist along the way.

[MJNewton]

Something important to add - you mentioned about running on 12v so please note the non-intuitive (to me at least) wiring schematic for DC operation that requires + to the 'N' terminal and - to 'L'.

[dpmiller]

I'm just using Aico's wireless test button and relay interface for the same kind of functionality. Smoke will kill power the the MVHR *and* an emergency light on the same circuit, but a CO problem will Boost the MVHR.

[MJNewton]

The emergency light is a neat idea. I'm surprised they're not a mandated requirement, not least given the ease with which they can be provided built in to smoke alarms thanks to the availability of cheap high power white LEDs these days. 

[dpmiller]

yep. I reckoned that if there really was a problem, getting down the stairs safely might just be handy.

[joth]

Fascinating alternative to the Tuya/Sonoff cloud centric closed platforms. I'd been meaning to try reflashing a couple of those devices with tasmota or ESPhome to try out, but for whatever reason they try and lock them down to make that difficult which is a put off for long term availability of devices. I couldn't understand why no one was specifically going after the enthusiast market with a locally connected and reflashable device at a non premium price, Shelly might just be filling that gap.

First observation is their developer page is light on info on exactly which devices do or don't support reflashing (e.g. what about the smart bulbs?) and what can be flashed onto it - Mongoose OS only, or others too?

[Ed Davies]

3 hours ago, joth said:

Fascinating alternative to the Tuya/Sonoff cloud centric closed platforms. I'd been meaning to try reflashing a couple of those devices with tasmota or ESPhome to try out, but for whatever reason they try and lock them down to make that difficult which is a put off for long term availability of devices.

 

Notes on reflashing recent Sonoff TH16s: https://edavies.me.uk/2019/07/sonoff/