SunAmp : Snog, Marry, Avoid?

[NSS]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

Yes, but not a cheap cylinder compared to other generic offerings. Still 2kW is not insignificant. You get what you pay for etc, so get better offerings from bigger name manufacturers. It’s a lot to do with all the additional connective pipe work in the worst cases. 
Can you recall the price of the cylinder at all? Or was it a package offering with the ASHP?

 

Around £900. More than the equivalent Gledhill at the time but decided it was worth paying the extra for the cylinder that was designed to work with the ASHP we'd chosen so as to avoid any blame games if we had any issues at a later date.

Edited June 25, 2020 by NSS

[Marco Van Bowden]

5 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

I like the technology of the SA, but they are too expensive and have control limitations.

 

So we have predominantly a mix of avoid, or snog.  Not anyone (from what I can see) saying marry.  

 

Question:

If Sunamp did a controller that was effectively a copy of what Mixergy have, and we round the numbers for illustration.  So Sunamp 3k for a 12 and Mixergy 1.5k for there 300L tank would this sway anyone I wonder?  I have to say, I'm being "forced to look again" at the Sunamp, as I expected far better product knowledge/support (yes, I aware I'm asking lots of questions when a lot of their are furloughed) but it just doesn't bode well for the future does it?? ?

 

@Barney12 I "feel" your pain, so I'm leaving that well alone... <Shifts quietly towards the exit>

[Nickfromwales]

22 minutes ago, Marco Van Bowden said:

 

So we have predominantly a mix of avoid, or snog.  Not anyone (from what I can see) saying marry.  

 

Question:

If Sunamp did a controller that was effectively a copy of what Mixergy have, and we round the numbers for illustration.  So Sunamp 3k for a 12 and Mixergy 1.5k for there 300L tank would this sway anyone I wonder?  I have to say, I'm being "forced to look again" at the Sunamp, as I expected far better product knowledge/support (yes, I aware I'm asking lots of questions when a lot of their are furloughed) but it just doesn't bode well for the future does it?? ?

 

@Barney12 I "feel" your pain, so I'm leaving that well alone... <Shifts quietly towards the exit>

£3k for a 12? Where did you get that number? You’re not looking on the Fisher website are you?

[PeterW]

4 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

£3k for a 12? Where did you get that number? You’re not looking on the Fisher website are you?

Didn’t think Fisher put prices on theirs ..? Only place I saw was on Midsummer at £2600 ex VAT

 

 

 

[PeterW]

30 minutes ago, Marco Van Bowden said:

Mixergy 1.5k for there 300L tank

For what benefit ..? It’s a posh UVC...?  Same capacity, Telford is £611 inc VAT and delivery...

 

 

[joth]

7 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

That is an option, but check that won't stuff your warranty up first

I checked, they recommend 4.5kW max, and that won't invalidate warranty

https://www.oso-spares.co.uk/immersion-heaters/45-kw-immersion-with-2-x-4mm-cables

 

[Nickfromwales]

5 minutes ago, joth said:

I checked, they recommend 4.5kW max, and that won't invalidate warranty

https://www.oso-spares.co.uk/immersion-heaters/45-kw-immersion-with-2-x-4mm-cables

 

That's better than 3kW so good news. Didn't think they'd have allowed a 6kW as that's a lot of heat in one place. 

[ProDave]

29 minutes ago, joth said:

I checked, they recommend 4.5kW max, and that won't invalidate warranty

https://www.oso-spares.co.uk/immersion-heaters/45-kw-immersion-with-2-x-4mm-cables

 

Interresting. Where does the thermostat go?

[dpmiller]

https://www.oso-spares.co.uk/thermostats

 

On the side of the tank?

[SteamyTea]

9 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Didn't think they'd have allowed a 6kW as that's a lot of heat in one place. 

Mixed units there, W is power, heat is J.

Edited June 26, 2020 by SteamyTea

[joth]

9 hours ago, ProDave said:

Interresting. Where does the thermostat go?

 

1/ The immersion has it's own stat plus emergency cut out

2/ it has a built in thermostat for the indirect heat source, midway down the coil

3/ it has a pocket for optional heatpump thermistor above the coil (next to immersion pocket)

https://osohotwater.co.uk/content/uploads/2018/10/OSO-DELTA-DGC-MANUAL-UK-142226-00A.pdf

 

If the heatpump thermistor is used for "fine control" the standard stat effectively becomes a high limit cut off

 

I also have a few DS18B20 I was thinking to attach to various pipework outlets for logging, but could perhaps be used for finer control too in future if really needed. 

Edited June 26, 2020 by joth

[ProDave]

38 minutes ago, joth said:

 

1/ The immersion has it's own stat plus emergency cut out

2/ it has a built in thermostat for the indirect heat source, midway down the coil

3/ it has a pocket for optional heatpump thermistor above the coil (next to immersion pocket)

https://osohotwater.co.uk/content/uploads/2018/10/OSO-DELTA-DGC-MANUAL-UK-142226-00A.pdf

 

If the heatpump thermistor is used for "fine control" the standard stat effectively becomes a high limit cut off

 

I also have a few DS18B20 I was thinking to attach to various pipework outlets for logging, but could perhaps be used for finer control too in future if really needed. 

Normally an immersion heater has the thermostat in a pocket within the thermostat housing.  I asked the question because that high power immersion heater linked to a few posts up does not appear to have a pocket, or room for a thermostat.

I have never seen a HW tank that has the immersion heaters thermostat remote mounted before.

[joth]

5 hours ago, ProDave said:

Normally an immersion heater has the thermostat in a pocket within the thermostat housing.  I asked the question because that high power immersion heater linked to a few posts up does not appear to have a pocket, or room for a thermostat.

 

Got it. To be honest the photo looked alien enough I didn't even try and understand what I'm looking at.

 

The instruction manual is clear the element must have thermostat and emergency cut off, and should not be replaced with a different manufacturer's, so the fact the manufacturer does rate this 4.5kW one for use in this tank seemed like it should meet those requirements . Like you I can't see if from the photo though.

 

 

 

[ProDave]

3 hours ago, joth said:

Got it. To be honest the photo looked alien enough I didn't even try and understand what I'm looking at.

 

The instruction manual is clear the element must have thermostat and emergency cut off, and should not be replaced with a different manufacturer's, so the fact the manufacturer does rate this 4.5kW one for use in this tank seemed like it should meet those requirements . Like you I can't see if from the photo though.

 

 

 

If you are going to take this any further, then clarify just where the thermostat for that high power heater goes.

[Triassic]

On 25/06/2020 at 10:01, ProDave said:

The early ones did appear to have a simpler control system that made it easier to charge with variable solar PV, but the later ones have a more complex control system that causes issues with that.

According to the Midsummer web site “the controller supplied with the battery has to be programmed for different applications.“   The Uniq 12  “Includes V100 Control unit”.

 

So is the V100 the latest control unit?

 

I had  ordered a Sunamp, but supplier was removed from Sunamp’s approved supplier list, so my money was refunded. 

I’m now wondering, do I want a Sunamp?

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Triassic

[ProDave]

7 minutes ago, Triassic said:

I’m now wondering, do I want a Sunamp?

 

I would say that is simple.

 

A sun Amp's main advantages seem to be the lower standing heat loss and the smaller size for a given volume of heat storage.

 

If either of those are important to you for example to avoid over heating a very well insulated house, or to fit in a space too small for a conventional hot water tank,  and you can work with all the other limitations such as not being able to heat the HW from an ASHP, then consider the sun amp.

 

If those main selling points are not relevant to your build, then I see little point in using a sun amp.

[PeterW]

12 minutes ago, Triassic said:

According to the Midsummer web site “the controller supplied with the battery has to be programmed for different applications.“   The Uniq 12  “Includes V100 Control unit”.

 

So is the V100 the latest control unit?

 

Yes it’s the latest but it’s not that smart. When they say programme it is setting the stuff such as the input type / temperature, the recharge level at 50/90% and some other real basics. 

[Triassic]

39 minutes ago, ProDave said:

If those main selling points are not relevant to your build, then I see little point in using a sun amp.

These are not relevant,  so no point in a Sunamp.

 

Any pointers  to  current best practice in hot water system design ?

[PeterW]

UVC, larger than you think you need and use ASHP to heat it. Manifold distribution from a central point, blended to suit the outlets. 

[ProDave]

7 minutes ago, PeterW said:

UVC, larger than you think you need and use ASHP to heat it. Manifold distribution from a central point, blended to suit the outlets. 

Not forgetting to specify the heat pump version of the UVC which has a larger surface area input coil to work with the lower temperature from an ASHP.

[Dan F]

2 hours ago, Triassic said:

So is the V100 the latest control unit?

 

There are muliutple different controlers depending on how it will be used which seems a bit old-school to me.  If you plan to use it with a heat-pump there are even 2 different controllers for Daikin and Samsung ASHP's.  The fact this is a hardware and not software dependency is something that put me off.  I hadn't realised that charging was also as limited as @PeterW says..

[Russdl]

2 hours ago, Triassic said:

I had  ordered a Sunamp, but supplier was removed from Sunamp’s approved supplier list, so my money was refunded. 

 

Same supplier as myself as I understand. I requested my supplier to deliver our Sunamp at the start of this lockdown but those requests were ignored. I subsequently found out that the supplier wasn’t approved so I sourced my own, direct from Sunamp. Now I’m just waiting for my refund from the non approved supplier. 

 

So, the fact that I’ve now got a Sunamp I guess puts me in the ‘marry’ camp (and hopefully one day the ‘merry’ camp) but it’s not up and running yet. 

[Dan F]

41 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Not forgetting to specify the heat pump version of the UVC which has a larger surface area input coil to work with the lower temperature from an ASHP.

 

Isn't using a PHE a preffered alternative that avoids oversizing UVC? That's what I've been told anyway...

[PeterW]

Just now, Dan F said:

 

Isn't using a PHE a preffered alternative that avoids oversizing UVC? That's what I've been told anyway...

No point as a PHE needs two pumps, two controllers and also then creates an issue with losing stratification in the UVC as it’s constantly flowing. The Telford UVCs with Heat Pump (3.3sqm) coils are fit and forget. 

[PeterW]

To add... reason for over sizing is you can hold a bigger volume slightly cooler as you still have the same volume of usable hot water when it’s blended down to 45c which is the measure of capacity. 
 

If you look here you will are the 200, 250 and 300 have the same footprint at 580mm just vary in height. About £100 difference in price between top and bottom.