Nick1c Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 As planning permission is looking promising [planning officer supports us but not the parish council, waiting to hear if they ‘agree to disagree’ or if it goes to committee] I am trying to get a realistic plan into place for demolishing and rebuilding our new home. A lot of my questions will be easily housed in the various sections on the forum, however here is one that is more general: All self-builders seem to get into budget problems towards the end of the process. My suspicion that it is down to a number of things, including unexpected problems, over-optimistic/ wishful thinking estimates of costs and not paying enough attention to things at the start, perhaps because there is a large pile of [actual or virtual] money to begin with, which becomes increasingly obviously finite as the build progresses. In an attempt to minimize the compromises at the end I am trying to consider ways of making the best use of the budget from the start. I would love to hear what are the [most obvious] flaws in the process outlined below? We hope to be building a reverse level, timber framed house of approx. 190 m2 with a pitched slate roof, render and timber clad elevations, concrete ground floor [with ufh], engineered timber first floor, triple glazing and MVHR. The vast majority of the kitchen will be from our old house and I plan to use Reuter or Megabad for the bathrooms [I have used Reuter a couple of times, they are well priced & the epitome of teutonic efficiency]. I am expecting the glazing to be a major element of both the cost and stress, particularly as we overlook the Atlantic. The plan ATM is: Demolish existing building, level the site & re-route services [to us & relevant neighbours]. Build a passive slab [300 mm EPS], powerfloating the concrete to give us the finished floor. Build & sheath the frame [I like @bissoejosh ‘s way of using I-beams calculated by CTD , cut, delivered & erected on site as our access isn’t brilliant] Install windows, roof, render/ clad. 1st fix. Plasterboard [?Fermacell}, lay 1st floor. Blow in warmcel. 2nd fix/decorate. What could possibly go wrong!!!!! Loads I have no doubt. Any advice would be gratefully accepted, I am particularly interested in things people wish they had thought of at the start or did, but wish they had changed as they had knock-on effects later. Also areas where unskilled free labour [mine!] can make significant savings. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMitchells Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Good luck with it It sounds like fun!. I cant give much advice as I am still without plot but there are plenty here with good tips. I am sure there is a post somewhere for all those 'I wish I had done this ...' . Thats probably worth a read so you can avoid some things. And buy the Housebuilders Bible which gives a good idea of how much things should cost for a basic 4 bed house. while not the same as yours, it gives a rough idea. and Spons may be mentioned too. good luck and lets have plenty of photo's please.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMitchells Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 This isnt the one I was thinking about but it may be worth a read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Nick1c said: All self-builders seem to get into budget problems towards the end of the process. My suspicion that it is down to a number of things, including unexpected problems, over-optimistic/ wishful thinking estimates of costs and not paying enough attention to things at the start, perhaps because there is a large pile of [actual or virtual] money to begin with, which becomes increasingly obviously finite as the build progresses. In an attempt to minimize the compromises at the end I am trying to consider ways of making the best use of the budget from the start. I would love to hear what are the [most obvious] flaws in the process outlined below? I think there are lots of reasons behind budget overruns. Sometimes, people add up all the things they think about, but then forget about all the little addons. For example, you budget for tiles, but then don't realise that adhesive and trims are a significant extra cost. They also forget the cost of things like an architect, pre-commencement conditions, landscaping and access. Our driveway is 45m long and we were surprised to learn just how expensive even the cheapest methods of making a driveway that long were. Another reason is the "upgrade as you go" model. That's where you budget everything out, then when you get to the bathroom you realise that by paying only 20% more for tiles, you can get something you really like, and hey, it's just for the bathroom, so doesn't add much to the budget overall. Then you do it for the wooden floors downstairs, then you splurge on an above budget kitchen. Do this enough times and a serious cost overrun will creep up on you. In my opinion, you can't go far wrong by working to a budget per m2. It depends on where you live, what spec you're after and how much you plan to do yourself, but if your figures are coming in much below, say £1500 per sqm, I think you'd want to have a good basis for such a low figure (several on here have managed that figure and a lot lower). Others will have better ideas of reasonable ranges than I do. It drives me barmy when I watch Grand Designs and someone suggests that they're going to build a large, bespoke, well-specced house for less than £1000/m2. Add extra frustration points if they're doing it via a main contractor and paying the architect to oversee things. One I particularly remember was the couple where the guy had had a stroke (I think - serious unexpected health problem, anyway), and they decided to build a huge house on the Isle of Wight. Their budget was £500k - my missus and I nearly spit out tea out! We said a minimum of a million, and I think they were at £1.2m or £1.3m by the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1c Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 I am assuming circa £1800/m2. A mate in the building industry reckons £14-1500 is plenty, the architect says most things round here come in at £2500. The Grand Designs budgets must be virtually all works of fiction [they also seem to find money trees when things get tight!]. Although more than I had hoped the site clearance & preparation costs look manageable - it appears that the current house has a floor level on average 500mm above the ground, the area to the front of the house is small [but sloping] and we need about 50m of trench dug to take power & phone lines to our neighbours which we will get done when a digger is on site. A big unknown is glazing, I am trying to get a window schedule from the architect so I can get more of an idea of the cost. I completely agree about the add-ons and will try to get [or estimate] fitted costs, particularly for floors & tiling - this has bitten me in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 One of the things that caught us out was what was included in each quote. For example, erection of timber frame kit. They were given the materials list and then supplied the quote. When it came to the sarking it was ‘not included guv’ even though it was in the list so we paid extra. So a detailed quote is really needed to catch everything, but builders tend to be pretty bad at this and self builders without experience don’t know it should be there in the first place so things get missed. Add to that the things you miss from your original estimate, the things you pay more for as ‘a little bit extra won’t hurt’, and the materials that cost more for a variety of reasons when you come to buy them, and all of that squeezes the budget. Then there are things you have to replace. Here it was a custom made cill as someone smashed one. The cost of having another one made and transported here was way out of proportion relative to the main order. Other people have broken windows, ordered windows that didn’t fit, smashed their new hob etc etc and that all adds to the cost. Plus the optimistic ‘I’ll be done in 9 months’ and then you are not and have to secure an extension to the site insurance that costs way more than if you had just added a bit extra to begin with. I did alter the spend on the kitchen and bathrooms to suit what was left in the budget so did land on budget as I economised in those areas. Do I regret it? Kitchen not really, bathrooms I wish I had spent more on so cost control is important but decide wisely. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redoctober Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 3 hours ago, newhome said: One of the things that caught us out was what was included in each quote. For example, erection of timber frame kit. They were given the materials list and then supplied the quote. When it came to the sarking it was ‘not included guv’ even though it was in the list so we paid extra. So a detailed quote is really needed to catch everything, but builders tend to be pretty bad at this and self builders without experience don’t know it should be there in the first place so things get missed. Exactly what happened to us! Include in that list soffitts and fascias and I was faced with an extra £2k - An oversight on my part yes, but the way the quote was written didn't help as I assumed it was included as it featured on their list! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Redoctober said: Exactly what happened to us! Include in that list soffitts and fascias and I was faced with an extra £2k - An oversight on my part yes, but the way the quote was written didn't help as I assumed it was included as it featured on their list! Know that feeling well! Builder capitalised on providing quotes that were too vague alongside our naivety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redoctober Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 5 hours ago, Nick1c said: Any advice would be gratefully accepted, I am particularly interested in things people wish they had thought of at the start or did, but wish they had changed as they had knock-on effects later. Also areas where unskilled free labour [mine!] can make significant savings. As for free labour - Mine, I spent my time doing general fetching and carrying and all the decorating. I am not useful for anything else but even so, I figured I have saved myself £1,000's by doing just these types of jobs. I would rather spend my time [hours] moving tiles etc into position than someone I'm paying £25 an hour etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedreamer Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 I've spent my last weekends painting the soffits and fascias. This would be sort of job I would hate to pay people to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedreamer Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 I also spent last Saturday tidying up bits of timber and slates. I have been meaning to do this for a while, but last Friday night a spare lenght of sarking board got lifted halfway been the pile where it had been lying and the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexphd1 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 If you have time and storage shop around for material Inc big ticket items. Ebay, gumteee etc are good places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1c Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 My time will be plentiful, the storage not so much...... One of the things we are thinking about is putting a 5x5m shed up early on for storage [we have a tuin leipzig where we are now, it's a great shed & very simple to put up [with a level, square, base - much like a timber frame I expect!] I imagine that one of the issues will be getting supply & fit at a decent price, often the fitters want RRP[!] for what they fit, & lose interest if they can't make what is effectively a double margin The obvious budget buffers in addition to the sourcing/ fetching/ carrying/ project management roles seem to be putting on the cladding & decorating. Thanks for the advice re: the timber frame elements, I'll attempt to avoid that pitfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 More important than "how to make the most of the budget" is "make sure you HAVE the budget you think you have. We started our build with enough money to get started, and the rest to come from the sale of our old house. Which then failed to sell. So we have struggled along very slowly "finding" money as we go instead, which is why I am doing just about all of it myself so we only have to spend on materials, not labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsilonGreedy Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 16 hours ago, Nick1c said: All self-builders seem to get into budget problems towards the end of the process. I have only been on the forum for 8 months but here are my suspicions about budget overruns: Commencing a project without a rough idea of the spending schedule relative to expected progress. Paying a main contractor a weekly appearance fee rather than staged payments for completed milestones. Unexpected high service connection charges. The syndrome of "It was only an extra £200 to do it right which is nothing in the grand scheme of thing" x 100 such instances. Too much bleeding edge technology which results in high-margin gizz us a job chancers buzzing around your project like wasps around a honey pot. Not allowing for the additional costs of a slow multi year build, e.g. extra travel, insurance, scaffolding rental, toilet hire and domestic utility charges. Believing in the federated responsibility model, i.e. frittering away money on a gaggle of offsite/part-time experts to provide a cozy warm feeling you are being looked after. Overlooking all the small incidental costs, e.g. fencing, H&S signage, tarpaulins to keep things dry onsite during the winter, 40 concrete blocks to prop up the static caravan and £55 of armoured cable to provide power to the caravan. Not accounting for waste material disposal costs and skip hire. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1c Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 Fortunately the money is in the bank - the plot came up pretty much as we exchanged on our old house. We don't have the option of finding a Grand Designs style money tree when it runs out. Thats a good list epsilon, the bleeding edge tech in particular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Nick1c said: Thats a good list epsilon, the bleeding edge tech in particular. Welcome to the forum. Good lists above, and there are hundreds of items where you can spend or save money, and a lot of things you do not need at all, or where alternatives available. My advice to spend your time generously before you start. As this is probably a one-off unless you plan to build several houses, you will not get the opportunity to learn from mistakes ... so you need to avoid the mistakes. Another side of that is that you have high financial and other disk, My comments given budget constraints and that you are probably doing some stuff yourself. Here are my 7. 1 Put the infrastructure in place to get good value automatically ... eg Trade Accounts, habit of thrift. 2 When to hire and when to buy then sell ... eg diggers, scaffolding. 3 Build a fairly detailed cost model in advance, and use this as a tool in learning about / managing your build. In taking on the PM yourself if you are, you are taking on from scratch a task that a pro would treat as varying between 1-2 days a week. 4 Decide not to eg embarrassed when asking ‘stupid’ questions. 5 Identify the basics eg insulation and finishes eg stairs that you want to send money on, and save the money for that. 6 Have a large contingency eg 15-20%. 7 Do not change things after you have committed to them without a damned good reason, but be aware it might be needed. 8. Remember that original estimates will not stick, especially given timescales and thinking later. Another reason to spend more time thinking in advance. 9. Get a mentor / sounding board from somewhere. Ferdinand Edited October 17, 2018 by Ferdinand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redoctober Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 7 hours ago, Ferdinand said: Welcome to the forum. Good lists above, and there are hundreds of items where you can spend or save money, and a lot of things you do not need at all, or where alternatives available. My advice ................................. 9. Get a mentor / sounding board from somewhere. What an excellent suggestion this is. I wish I had someone like that whom I could have turned too. Not that I would be doing this ever again, but if I were, or were to advise someone, I would suggest trying to latch onto someone locally, who is going through the self build process and " work" alongside them perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivienz Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Find out lead times for things that are critical to the flow of work on site as delays to deliveries can mean extra expense elsewhere if you miss timeslots with other things, as well as over run costs on things like scaffold hire and site insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jude1234 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Lots of good tips above. WRT glazing make sure that your windows are standard sizes then they will be cheaper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 what's a "standard" size? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundtuit Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Perhaps it depends what you're looking for, but when I shopped for windows, there was no standard sizes- nothing was 'off the shelf', all made to order. My top tip? Keep it simple! I've got several 'nice features' that sounded great at the design stage, but added thousands to the cost. To be fair, they are nice features, but if I'd understood the full implications I may have made some different choices... The other surprise for me was the cost of labour locally. We're by no means in an affluent area, but I reckon supply and demand means that a) getting a quote for one-off job is a battle, and b) trades can add themselves a generous 'bonus' into the quote ss they don't really want or need the work. Try and get a feel for the local market and how that might impact on theoretical costs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, Roundtuit said: Perhaps it depends what you're looking for, but when I shopped for windows, there was no standard sizes- nothing was 'off the shelf', all made to order. We asked a couple of alu-clad window suppliers whether using standard sizes would reduce cost, and both said there are no standard sizes. Even trying to keep multiple windows the same size makes no difference, as all windows are bespoke, and the minor gains potentially made by having a few windows the same size are completely swamped by the cost of materials and labour. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crofter Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 With windows, I found the savings are to be made by keeping things simple. So go for big panes, not lots of little ones, and have them fixed where possible. Incidentally the bigger panes lose proportionately less heat than a bunch of smaller panes in the same frame. Other tips- source your own fittings where possible. I was shocked at what sparkies and plumbers are charging for fittings, despite them supposedly getting a good deal on their trade accounts. It might be worth checking with them beforehand that they are happy with the quality, just in case. You can also get good deals by being ruthless about pursuing low prices. There seems to be two different worlds out there- you get the people selling to the Grand Designs, Homebuilding and Renovating crowd, and then you get people selling on eBay/Amazon etc. I went online for my bathroom and the whole thing came in well under £1000. A posh high street design studio wanted to charge me double that just for the walk in shower enclosure alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Crofter said: I went online for my bathroom and the whole thing That is like early Top Gear ... “I went on the Internet and I found ... “. I might self-divert with Kitlers (“I Can Haz Poland”) or Karma Sooty of amusing memory. F Edited October 18, 2018 by Ferdinand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now