Window fitting

[laurenco]

I'm having an MBC frame with Velfac windows and a Parex render on my new house. Whilst they all promised to liaise with each other re: final aperture sizes at the time of booking, it's less than a month before we start and no one is willing to take responsibly for the final size of the windows.

 

Velfac say MBC's aperture sizes need to be adjusted for the battening, cementboard and render as this needs to be done before the windows can be installed. The render company will not promise an exact thickness, and MBC are trying not to get involved. How do I ensure the window sizes are right?

[worldwidewebs]

Have the windows been ordered? If not, I'd wait until the render has been done then take your measurements from there. This will cause a delay but I think it would be for the best overall

 

If they have been ordered, then I think you'll have to work with the renderers so that they finish to the right dimensions. The render onto render board isn't that thick so if they're any good they shouldn't be more than a mm or so out, which is nothing in reality. It may be worth speaking to a different renderer too. I can recommend our guys if that helps (Cheshire Facades)

 

 

[bissoejosh]

Have you seen the detail issued by Velfac below? The cladding etc doesn't actually go back into the structural opening if you detail it similarly it merely sits flush with and the window overhangs the frame. This might mean your frame dimensions don't need to alter?

 

 

V200E.W1.04.B.J.001 - Jamb copy.pdf

[nod]

The responsibility is with MBC 

to set a structural opening size 

and a finished opening size 

and for the other two to work to the drawing Suplied

While the render can vary across the building it is easy controlled around the windows 

 

 

[Lesgrandepotato]

We found out after the event, velfac have a measuring service... the way they describe their measurements caused no ends of confusion for our lads. You have to account for the shadow gaps from memory. 

[laurenco]

3 hours ago, worldwidewebs said:

Have the windows been ordered? If not, I'd wait until the render has been done then take your measurements from there. This will cause a delay but I think it would be for the best overall

 

If they have been ordered, then I think you'll have to work with the renderers so that they finish to the right dimensions. The render onto render board isn't that thick so if they're any good they shouldn't be more than a mm or so out, which is nothing in reality. It may be worth speaking to a different renderer too. I can recommend our guys if that helps (Cheshire Facades)

 

 

Thank you - I'll give them a call. They're Wilmslow based, which isn't too far from us. Can I ask what sort of money were they? We've been quoted £30k for c.400m2 of render/renderboard/battening.

 

We'd booked the windows, but need to confirm final sizes, but I really don't want the frame to be 'open' through winter, so ideally I'll get this boxed off

[laurenco]

2 hours ago, bissoejosh said:

Have you seen the detail issued by Velfac below? The cladding etc doesn't actually go back into the structural opening if you detail it similarly it merely sits flush with and the window overhangs the frame. This might mean your frame dimensions don't need to alter?

 

 

V200E.W1.04.B.J.001 - Jamb copy.pdf

Thanks bissoejosh, that's very interesting. So we could get away without altering our window dimensions

[laurenco]

1 hour ago, Lesgrandepotato said:

We found out after the event, velfac have a measuring service... the way they describe their measurements caused no ends of confusion for our lads. You have to account for the shadow gaps from memory. 

what are shadow gaps?

[lizzie]

11 hours ago, laurenco said:

I'm having an MBC frame with Velfac windows and a Parex render on my new house. Whilst they all promised to liaise with each other re: final aperture sizes at the time of booking, it's less than a month before we start and no one is willing to take responsibly for the final size of the windows.

 

Velfac say MBC's aperture sizes need to be adjusted for the battening, cementboard and render as this needs to be done before the windows can be installed. The render company will not promise an exact thickness, and MBC are trying not to get involved. How do I ensure the window sizes are right?

Sounds about right, buck stops with you.......that will be the case all the way through the build!

 

I had mbc frame internorm windows and alumasc render.   I would say the render is least of worries thats easily sorted on site.  The window openings are another.  I thought that mbc and Internorm suppliers were singing from the same song sheet and PM was overseeing the whole thing but when windows came apertures were wrong.  My carpenter was on site at the time and made adjustments filling in where gaps were too big and adjusting where too small. Thankfully most openings were too big as that is a whole lot easier to adjust.

[Mr Punter]

You will need some detail drawings of the jambs, cill and head.  This will show the location of the window in the frame, air sealing, any additional insulation, battening, cement board, render and plasterboard.

 

Quite often with the Velfac windows you will need to order cill packers and a separately ordered aluminium cill screws into this.  You need to allow for this in the structural opening.  You should allow for 12mm either side between the window and the finished render as the sashes are the full width of the window.

 

Have a good look at the Velfac site.

[laurenco]

2 hours ago, lizzie said:

Sounds about right, buck stops with you.......that will be the case all the way through the build!

 

I had mbc frame internorm windows and alumasc render.   I would say the render is least of worries thats easily sorted on site.  The window openings are another.  I thought that mbc and Internorm suppliers were singing from the same song sheet and PM was overseeing the whole thing but when windows came apertures were wrong.  My carpenter was on site at the time and made adjustments filling in where gaps were too big and adjusting where too small. Thankfully most openings were too big as that is a whole lot easier to adjust.

Lizzie, this sounds like a nightmare! Pleased you got it sorted in the end

Edited August 21, 2018 by laurenco

[Jeremy Harris]

5 hours ago, lizzie said:

Sounds about right, buck stops with you.......that will be the case all the way through the build!

 

I had mbc frame internorm windows and alumasc render.   I would say the render is least of worries thats easily sorted on site.  The window openings are another.  I thought that mbc and Internorm suppliers were singing from the same song sheet and PM was overseeing the whole thing but when windows came apertures were wrong.  My carpenter was on site at the time and made adjustments filling in where gaps were too big and adjusting where too small. Thankfully most openings were too big as that is a whole lot easier to adjust.

 

 

What happened with our build is this:

 

As the designer, I stipulated the frame opening dimensions, to the mm.  The frame construction company (MBC) made the frame EXACTLY to those opening dimensions.

 

The window supplier was given a sat of exact frame opening dimensions.  They insisted on sending their local chap around as soon as the frame was erected to check that the dimensions that they had quoted against were correct (they were).

 

The window supplier then sent me a final contract, which included a dimensioned drawing of every single window and door, each with a unique reference number and its location.  By each window/door drawing there was a box for me to sign to confirm that the dimension, opening directions, spec etc was correct (I literally had to sign and date each and every individual window/door drawing (around 14 of them, IIRC).

 

The window supplier made all the doors and windows 5mm smaller all around *** as a fitting tolerance, to allow them to be slid in relatively easily and wedged up to get them all dead square.  They fitted all the windows and doors in less than a day *** and were generally OK.  I didn't opt to use their gap filling service but chose to do that myself, primarily because I wanted to be absolutely sure it was as good a job as was possible, and frankly I'm glad I did, as the company in general didn't impress me (although the doors and windows have been fine).

 

The frame supplier wasn't supposed to be involved with the window supplier at all, but when I was having hassle with the window company MBC did go out of their way to help (Joe drove down to Cork and gave the window company bloke a bollocking and told him to engage with his customers more positively, from what I can gather).

 

 

*** The gotcha was that we had one one window that was 2000mm wide, all the others were smaller.  They turned up with two windows 2000mm wide and minus one window that was 1600mm wide.  Luckily the reams of drawings that were in the contract, each individually signed, made it clear that they had screwed up, so they took the 2000mm wide window back and returned a couple of weeks late with the correct 1600mm wide one.  This incident made me glad I'd had to sign off every individual window and door as a part of the contract.

 

 

[lizzie]

I think you were 'lucky' in several ways Jeremy.....you did not have a 'professional' overseeing things for you and you were capable of doing this yourself. Always best if your are competent but I was not so I had to put my trust in a professional third party. MBC were different then too I think they have changed a bit since your day,  the bigger a company grows the less hands on and personal it becomes although I was kept at arms length from MBC mostly.  I had a numbered window schedule all signed off - that all the sizes were wrong is where the problem arises.  Was it the frame supplier or the window supplier who got it wrong......having searched through I found the answers and it appears the person who was paid to co-ordinate this whole thing did not seem to notice where things were awry.  Thank god for my trusty carpenter to make the adjustments required.

[HerbJ]

53 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

As the designer, I stipulated the frame opening dimensions, to the mm.  The frame construction company (MBC) made the frame EXACTLY to those opening dimensions.

 

The window supplier was given a sat of exact frame opening dimensions.  They insisted on sending their local chap around as soon as the frame was erected to check that the dimensions that they had quoted against were correct (they were).

 

The window supplier then sent me a final contract, which included a dimensioned drawing of every single window and door, each with a unique reference number and its location.  By each window/door drawing there was a box for me to sign to confirm that the dimension, opening directions, spec etc was correct (I literally had to sign and date each and every individual window/door drawing (around 14 of them, IIRC).

 

I did exactly the same.  Like @JSHarris i was the designated desgner and managing contractor/project manager. My wife and I spent many hours checking drawings and specification for everything and produced a wide range of check/interface documents

 

We spent hours checking and crosschecking, We signed off the MBC Timberframe drawings and the windows detailed drawings. We also carried out the same exercise for all our internals doors, for kitchen furniture, for lights, for MVHR ducting, etc, etc. We discussed and agreed fitting tolerances with both the window manufacturer and the door manufacturer, then we used these tolerances to establish the window and door aperture dimensions. Everything went well, except that we had several triangular shaped windows for which, ideally, the fitting tolerance should have been a greater than for standard windows. The same problems was also faced with our main front door, assembly, which is huge and in three pieces - a larger fitting tolerance should have been recommended.  A site visit by the window installer, BEFORE finalising the window apertures, would have resolved these fitting tolerance issues

[Jeremy Harris]

41 minutes ago, lizzie said:

I think you were 'lucky' in several ways Jeremy.....you did not have a 'professional' overseeing things for you and you were capable of doing this yourself. Always best if your are competent but I was not so I had to put my trust in a professional third party. MBC were different then too I think they have changed a bit since your day,  the bigger a company grows the less hands on and personal it becomes although I was kept at arms length from MBC mostly.  I had a numbered window schedule all signed off - that all the sizes were wrong is where the problem arises.  Was it the frame supplier or the window supplier who got it wrong......having searched through I found the answers and it appears the person who was paid to co-ordinate this whole thing did not seem to notice where things were awry.  Thank god for my trusty carpenter to make the adjustments required.

 

 

FWIW, MBC had virtually nothing at all to do with my windows and doors at all.  They made the frame to my design, in terms of overall dimensions, door and window openings, etc.  Their only intervention was after I'd complained (in passing) that the window company were a bit of a shambles to deal with.  Unknown to me their MD took the trouble to drive down to Cork and give the window company an earful on my behalf; something that they didn't need to do and weren't in any way contracted to do - windows, doors and all the relevant opening sizes and specifications were 100% my responsibility, right from the very start.  In fact, it's written into the MBC contract that all that stuff is my responsibility, as was loads of other stuff like me providing the scaffolding as required and on time, me providing skips as required, toilet, hand washing and first aid facilities etc, etc.  The contract is a dozen pages long and is crystal clear as to what was my responsibility and what was theirs, which is one reason why I can't understand why some seem to think that project management was in any way a frame companies responsibility - it's clear in my contract that it's my job to sort that aspect out.

[Mr Punter]

@laurenco needs to bear in mind that with the Velfac system the moving outer sash and the fixed inner frame are the same size which means that to structural opening needs to be larger than normal.

[vivienz]

I've yet to get to the fitting stage, but my window company, Norrsken, have gone to a great deal of trouble to liaise directly with MBC over structural opening sizes, fitting apertures, indents in the slab for turn and slide doors, etc.

 

I will still be measuring everything once the openings are there, but so far the attention to detail from my window company has been good.  They have worked with quite a few timber frame suppliers, including MBC, and are supply and install.  Whether reality matches the plan remains to be seen, but I will report back in full once the windows start going in on 24th September.

[lizzie]

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

 

 

FWIW, MBC had virtually nothing at all to do with my windows and doors at all.  They made the frame to my design, in terms of overall dimensions, door and window openings, etc.  Their only intervention was after I'd complained (in passing) that the window company were a bit of a shambles to deal with.  Unknown to me their MD took the trouble to drive down to Cork and give the window company an earful on my behalf; something that they didn't need to do and weren't in any way contracted to do - windows, doors and all the relevant opening sizes and specifications were 100% my responsibility, right from the very start.  In fact, it's written into the MBC contract that all that stuff is my responsibility, as was loads of other stuff like me providing the scaffolding as required and on time, me providing skips as required, toilet, hand washing and first aid facilities etc, etc.  The contract is a dozen pages long and is crystal clear as to what was my responsibility and what was theirs, which is one reason why I can't understand why some seem to think that project management was in any way a frame companies responsibility - it's clear in my contract that it's my job to sort that aspect out.

I never meant to imply that project management is the TF company responsibility - if I thought that I would not have paid best part of £50k to a project manager. What I meant was that MBC are now too big to have that intimate personal contact with every customer, I doubt very much what happened with you would happen today, they are not as personally connected. They have employed a person who is now their 'troubleshooter' sorting problems and doing the customer hand holding.......I know this person very well...............this person started the job with MBC while my build was in progress.

 

@vivienzApart from really liking the Internorm windows I was told by MBC (via PM) and Internorm that they had a lot of experience of working together...................that was also a factor in my choice of window provider. I think my Internorm supplier was hopeless but the windows themselves are lovely.  The manager got the sack part way through only found that out when we tried to confirm a delivery date and was told no order on books......they did however have a big chunk of money from me that had been sitting in their bank for months they just didnt know what it was for! We had to start the whole thing again and I think thats where everything went awry.

[Jeremy Harris]

@lizzie, I can't help but think that you weren't well served by your PM.  For £50k I would have expected you to have had far fewer problems than you did, and with the single exception of the cock up by the concrete floor sub-contractor (first time they'd ever done such a job, apparently) it does seem that the majority of your problems come down to failings by your PM in one form or another.  Maybe the Internorm installers were also to blame for some of your woes - they are a reputable company that do seem to be let down by their sub-contracted or franchised supplier/installer network, from what I can gather.

[lizzie]

1 minute ago, JSHarris said:

@lizzie, I can't help but think that you weren't well served by your PM.  For £50k I would have expected you to have had far fewer problems than you did, and with the single exception of the cock up by the concrete floor sub-contractor (first time they'd ever done such a job, apparently) it does seem that the majority of your problems come down to failings by your PM in one form or another.  Maybe the Internorm installers were also to blame for some of your woes - they are a reputable company that do seem to be let down by their sub-contracted or franchised supplier/installer network, from what I can gather.

No-one has ever told me this about the concrete floor sub-contractor...................

[Jeremy Harris]

9 minutes ago, lizzie said:

No-one has ever told me this about the concrete floor sub-contractor...................

 

 

I can tell you for sure that your floor was sub-contracted out to a company that had little of no experience of this type of foundation - your project manager knew this for sure, I know.  That's not to say that the sub-contracted company shouldn't have done a very much better job, they clearly should have, and that's why MBC offered rectification work at no cost to yourself.  Lessons were learned and the sub-contractor involved got additional instruction, plus, I believe, direct oversight on future jobs, to make sure there wasn't a repeat performance.  Sub-contracting is normal, but in this case the sub-contractor didn't work to the specification they were given, something that was outwith the control of yourself, MBC or your project manager.  All MBC could do was come up with a way to rectify the poor workmanship as best anyone was able, which I believe they did, at no additional cost to you.

[Dreadnaught]

20 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

All MBC could do was come up with a way to rectify the poor workmanship as best anyone was able, which I believe they did, at no additional cost to you.

 

With only the most limited of knowledge of the circumstances in question, and with the benefits of hindsight in light of the knock on consequences for the rest of her build, it strikes me that in @lizzie's case rectification may have been insufficient. Perhaps a solution similar to that for @PeterStarck

might have been better. That is to cut up the slab, cart it away, and start again. 

 

Just an uninformed guess. 

 

(For clarification, as I recall MBC had nothing to do with @PeterStarck's build.)

 

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by Dreadnaught

[lizzie]

3 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

 

I can tell you for sure that your floor was sub-contracted out to a company that had little of no experience of this type of foundation - your project manager knew this for sure, I know.  That's not to say that the sub-contracted company shouldn't have done a very much better job, they clearly should have, and that's why MBC offered rectification work at no cost to yourself.  Lessons were learned and the sub-contractor involved got additional instruction, plus, I believe, direct oversight on future jobs, to make sure there wasn't a repeat performance.  Sub-contracting is normal, but in this case the sub-contractor didn't work to the specification they were given, something that was outwith the control of yourself, MBC or your project manager.  All MBC could do was come up with a way to rectify the poor workmanship as best anyone was able, which I believe they did, at no additional cost to you.

Not quite right, it did end up costing me money as it cost more than the sum agreed with MBC to sort the slab but a price was agreed and that was that I did not go back to ask for more. 

 

MBC then put the frame up lopsided on the slab before it was rectified, the frame remains lopsided. We have had to fund all sorts of extra work to compensate for this lop sided out of square frame. MBC have not paid a penny towards this. The slab being wrong has impacted the whole build all that was done by way of rectification was that the floor was made 'flat' in order to tile circa 140 bags of levelling compound into the dips.........I am interested that MBC and project manager were aware of shortcomings in their subcontractor.  My project manager refused to accept there was anything wrong with the slab despite me pointing out lakes of water after it had gone down and before the frame went up. The only reason MBC got involved is that they read my desperate pleas for help on this forum and I have no complaint with the way they responded to that.  As far as I knew they were unaware of the problems until then but it is a surprise that their frame erectors did not mention gaps under the TF floor timbers that you could put your hand under they did not even pack these gaps just left them and so they remained until levelling compound went underneath.  That did not deal with the dips in the roof  directly above the worst areas nor did it deal with the frame not being square...it is 40m out on one corner......I could go on......... We have had to sort all that out at our own expense.

 

Do you know my former project manager?

[Jeremy Harris]

This was a somewhat different situation to the one that I think@PeterStarckhad, in that the slab was structurally sound.  I believe his had structural defects, rather than cosmetic defects.

 

@lizzie, I've been told, directly, that you personally agreed to accept the rectification work that was offered, or did through your project manager.  I know that your project manager failed badly in not doing his job, but did you, or did you not, accept the rectification offer that was made?

 

If the answer is "yes", then I think it's unfair to continue to raise this at every opportunity, as you tend to do.  By accepting the rectification offer you ended the matter, as far as any contractual dispute may have been concerned.

 

On the other hand, if you still have not accepted any rectification offer, then I'd seek resolution with those responsible, and only if the responsible parties refused to offer to rectify faults would I go on any open forum and continue to regularly raise the matter again as if it were an outstanding complaint, which you are still waiting to be resolved.  I will admit to having been told that you were content with the resolution reached over a year ago now.  Was I lied to?

 

I still get the very strong impression that your project manager let you down to a much greater extent than any other company you had working on your build, and that much of your, quite understandable ire, should really be directed at him.

 

 

[newhome]

17 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

If the answer is "yes", then I think it's unfair to continue to raise this at every opportunity, as you tend to do.  By accepting the rectification offer you ended the matter, as far as any contractual dispute may have been concerned.

 

People don't tend to forget easily if they feel they have been wronged. And something that you feel might be the right solution at the time (especially if you have little knowledge of the subject matter) may not be the end of it if later further issues occur that you might relate back to the original work, or if the issues are with the same company. We all have bees in our bonnets about certain areas of our build for sure. Things that eat away at you until you are able to move on and let it go. T'ain't easy though and takes time!