ProDave Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 Someone put a multimeter on it to measure the value and solve the confusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radian Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 10 minutes ago, Dan F said: Nah. I read it as yellow-black-red-brown-brown. i.e. 4.02kΩ ±1%. Yes that'd be right. Odd to use an E48 value with 1% tolerance but that's what makes it so special (not). I seriously wouldn't want to be doing any business with a company that would try selling me that and neither should anyone else IMO. The question is - who set the price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 Bean counters probably Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan F Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Radian said: Yes that'd be right. Odd to use an E48 value with 1% tolerance but that's what makes it so special (not). I seriously wouldn't want to be doing any business with a company that would try selling me that and neither should anyone else IMO. The question is - who set the price? Vaillant UK clearly (as two different suppliers have quoted £300+). This sells for €40 in europe. That said this may well be the same thing (probably is), but they are using a different part numbers. https://www.heatingspareparts.com/boiler-spares/partno/0020266328/517003. Google that part number and you get a pircture of what I have here: https://www.glo24.de/vaillant-stecker-kodierung-0020266328 Edited July 20, 2022 by Dan F 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 "Odd to use an E48 value with 1% tolerance but that's what makes it so special (not)." Odd, or deliberate strategy to make money? How can you not suspect that the engineers suggested a piece of copper wire or a 1k resistor, but the marketing/product management people vetoed that. They probably had to write completely pointless firmware specially to check that the correct value is used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan F Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 Looked into this a bit futher. Vaillant have used these "code plugs" in their gas boilers to switch between gas type; G20 (yellow), G25 (blue), propane (yellow) for some time. These code plugs sell for £5 in the U.K. What they've done here is is they are selling the same thing, under a different product code for a huge markup! Sneaky! 31 minutes ago, Radian said: I seriously wouldn't want to be doing any business with a company that would try selling me that and neither should anyone else IMO. The question is - who set the price? Mine is already installed. No idea what installer paid for this "chip", I don't think he itemized it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radian Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Dan F said: Mine is already installed. No idea what installer paid for this "chip", I don't think he itemized it. I hope you'll excuse me. I was really quite angry about yet another big rip-off with people owning heat pumps. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 2 hours ago, Dan F said: Looked into this a bit futher. Vaillant have used these "code plugs" in their gas boilers to switch between gas type; G20 (yellow), G25 (blue), propane (yellow) for some time. These code plugs sell for £5 in the U.K. What they've done here is is they are selling the same thing, under a different product code for a huge markup! Sneaky! It's not "sneaky" it's extortion. £5 I could accept, just. If they are going to charge £300 then they should expect to be outed for that and not surprised when someone offers "unofficial" alternatives. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 Funny that.. but it’s the reason we don’t spec Vaillant on any jobs .. the last boiler installed from them failed a week into service and the engineer came out and replaced the main board without checking it - he knew the issue…! And then told the client that the new board was only guaranteed 12 months not 6 (or 7..?) years like the rest of the boiler as it was a service part … How to be removed as a supplier from a spec list !! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radian Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 There is an element of discouragement towards ASHP in cooling mode in the UK coming from somewhere. I remember years ago someone had been 'shopped' to local authority by a neighbour for installing ASHP without planning and BC eventually decided it was OK but insisted it be disabled from cooling. I wonder if this is a ripple coming from that direction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 11 minutes ago, Radian said: There is an element of discouragement towards ASHP in cooling mode in the UK coming from somewhere. MCS - it is a condition of the grants for ASHP that they can’t cool. Also, to get around having to write new guidance, they adopted the MCS rules for heat pumps under permitted development .. including the line about cooling. Hence why it’s there. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 I got thousands of resistors. Bet not one is the right type. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan F Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, PeterW said: MCS - it is a condition of the grants for ASHP that they can’t cool. Are you referring to RHI? With RHI you can install a ASHP with cooling enabled, we did and also declared it as such. https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental-and-social-schemes/domestic-renewable-heat-incentive-domestic-rhi/applicants/eligible-heating-systems. Also, MCS 020 (permitted development guidelines) doesn't say anything about cooling from what I remember either. Edited July 20, 2022 by Dan F 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke1 Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 10 hours ago, Radian said: I hope you'll excuse me. I was really quite angry about yet another big rip-off with people owning heat pumps. I agree that this is borderline criminal from Vaillant and its UK Suppliers. It would be nice if someone were to request an explanation from Vaillant as to the price disparity from Europe in particular! It would be good to setup a table of pros & cons for various heat pumps for future reference. Recently this forum discovered the high standby electricity use of certain systems and now this from a different supplier. These are certainly points that savvy interested prospective buyers would like to know about. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 I am still waiting for this forum to do it's public service and determine without any doubt the exact value of this very expensive resistor. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 20 hours ago, Dreadnaught said: Good point. Here's an example from Belgium: https://lbge.be/product/vaillant-codeerstekker-voor-activatie-van-de-koelfunctie-0020269259/, €51 If you purchase one, you can possibly read its resistive value and release the information here. Is this thing encapsulated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 20 minutes ago, ProDave said: I am still waiting for this forum to do it's public service and determine without any doubt the exact value of this very expensive resistor. It’s the “value” of the resistor that we need in order to ascertain its “cost”. 11 hours ago, PeterW said: MCS - it is a condition of the grants for ASHP that they can’t cool. Also, to get around having to write new guidance, they adopted the MCS rules for heat pumps under permitted development .. including the line about cooling. Hence why it’s there. You can, you just have to meter the heat and take A from B to discount energy spent on cooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john0wingnut Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 26 minutes ago, Luke1 said: I agree that this is borderline criminal from Vaillant and its UK Suppliers. It would be nice if someone were to request an explanation from Vaillant as to the price disparity from Europe in particular! It would be good to setup a table of pros & cons for various heat pumps for future reference. Recently this forum discovered the high standby electricity use of certain systems and now this from a different supplier. These are certainly points that savvy interested prospective buyers would like to know about. Thing is, this practice is everywhere, and is similar to limiting via software. Eg take Tesla - £1500 for acceleration increase. Everything is already in the car but limited via software. In the instance of Vallient Heatpumps, they have gone down the route of a resistor to do the same thing. Do they retail at a lesser cost than other brands with cooling fiction available as standard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 17 minutes ago, john0wingnut said: Do they retail at a lesser cost than other brands with cooling fiction available as standard? Press a couple of buttons in installer settings for Panasonic.👌 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 9 hours ago, Dan F said: 11 hours ago, PeterW said: MCS - it is a condition of the grants for ASHP that they can’t cool. Are you referring to RHI? With RHI you can install a ASHP with cooling enabled, we did and also declared it as such. https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental-and-social-schemes/domestic-renewable-heat-incentive-domestic-rhi/applicants/eligible-heating-systems. Also, MCS 020 (permitted development guidelines) doesn't say anything about cooling from what I remember either. Indeed since at least 2017 RHI did not disallow cooling (it just did not include estimated cooling demand into the payments, and if they required metered for billing the meter had to be setup to record heating only). I think more practically, MCS training does not cover cooling and/or gives some dire warnings about the complications. So most installers refuse to touch is as they don't want to willfully install something they know they've not been trained in. No amount of people on here declaring how easy it is to DIY will move the liability factor someone trying to run a company will have on their mind. So between permitted development, historic RHI limitations, and the above MCS reluctance means any manufacturer selling into the UK needs a way for the installer to disable cooling (or it be disabled by default) so that it is not violating planning laws, grant conditions, or the installer's own contracted agreement with the customer. Thus all these dip switches, hidden menus and silly coding resistor. As for the price gouging by Valliant, I know it's easy to assume some mastermind conspiracy to extort their customers, but I'd be willing to bet they have a single UK distributor that has decided to try given the current heatwave and/or "supply chain issues", and found at this moment some people willingly paying it so they are leaving the prices there. Give it until winter and I bet the price will settle again. If you think about it even the 50 EUR prices is extortionate for the manufacturing cost of the part so everyone is just playing the game of charging whatever the market will bear. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan F Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said: If you purchase one, you can possibly read its resistive value and release the information here. Is this thing encapsulated? I have one. Already taken it out of ASHP, opened it and shared pictures above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan F Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 8 minutes ago, joth said: So between permitted development, What is the relationship/limitation with permitted development? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ykhan16 Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 I'm going to apply for the 5K government grant for ASHP- will this dictate whether the heat pump can be run in cooling mode? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Dan F said: What is the relationship/limitation with permitted development? Permitted development only allows for one air source heat pump per property and it must only be used for heating, not cooling. If you squint you can see an argument that cooling operates when neighbours' are most likely to have their windows open thus the noise could be more of a nuisance, hence requires PP. https://www.planningportal.co.uk/permission/common-projects/heat-pumps/planning-permission-air-source-heat-pump In addition, the following conditions must also be met. The air source heat pump must be: Used solely for heating purposes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 1 hour ago, ykhan16 said: I'm going to apply for the 5K government grant for ASHP- will this dictate whether the heat pump can be run in cooling mode? I believe cooling is allowed by the government rules: The ASHP must be able to supply the full heating AND hot water needs of the property, but what else it can do beyond that is not constrained in the current published guidance https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/boiler-upgrade-scheme-guidance-property-owners The only wrinkle is it does require the ASHP to be MCS certified, which runs into the MCS reluctance to support cooling I mentioned up thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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