Powering a cement mixer with a 1000w generator.

[Stones]

31 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

You should be thanking me.

 

Indeed.  I prostrate myself before the feet of the world's greatest living comedian  self-builder.

 

I only wish that I'd been able to accumulate the knowledge and wisdom of self-building you've acquired over the last few weeks, over the course of the 6 builds I've done.  

[Jeremy Harris]

6 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

Ofcourse it was condescending. It was such a self indulgent exercise in condensation only those already expert in cement mixer operation would have deduced the underlying motivation for his post i.e. not to restart a loaded mixer because of safety and mechanical concerns.

 

These points are now clearly stated in the public domain because of my follow ups. You should be thanking me.

 

 

How on earth can stating the standard way that mixers have been used for donkey's years be condescending to anyone?

 

I'm sorry, but I'm not likely to thank you for making the potentially dangerous suggestion that anyone should "use muscle power to help the first 10 degrees of rotation".  To even think that was a reasonable thing to do shows a disregard for the obvious risks.

 

The key here is the way in which information is conveyed, and whether or not a new member of this forum, with little or no knowledge, might assume from the author's writing style that he or she is knowledgeable and so their content should be trusted as being accurate and safe.  I'm afraid many of your posts do come across as if you have become an overnight expert in several areas, when just a short time ago, in May of this year, you appeared to be disparaging about those of us here with years, or decades, of experience and admitted that you knew little about trades, when you wrote this:

 

Quote

I have been a reasonably competent master & commander of a middle size 35ft sailing yacht in recent years though beyond that claim I am a jack of zero trades. Early encounters with the good denizens of the BuildHub forum tarred me as a hopelessly naive computer programmer fit for little more than making tea onsite. Some forum luminaries offered encouragement and suggested that with sufficient aptitude my career as a selfbuilder could see promotion to building site chief portaloo cleaner.

 

Apart from the above being factually incorrect, in that I cannot find a single reference anywhere in any of the content on this forum that states, or even implies, that "Early encounters with the good denizens of the BuildHub forum tarred me as a hopelessly naive computer programmer fit for little more than making tea onsite".  All I can see are people offering free help and advice, coupled with responses from you which seem a touch arrogant and supercilious.

 

This is a generally very friendly place, and a lot of that relies on give and take, plus members having a bit of humility when they make an error and correct it.  It's not acceptable, in my view, to express arrogance, as in "These points are now clearly stated in the public domain because of my follow ups. You should be thanking me.", especially when the aspect in question, never hand assisting a powered mixer, has been in the public domain as plain safety common sense since I was a small boy.   I've made enough errors here, and tried to correct them whenever I've found them or they have been pointed out to me, to have learned that it's generally more acceptable when trying to make a point to be slightly less assertive that I would be inclined to be normally.  We all have to accept that there will always be members that hold contrary views to our own, and they are entitled to do so.  The problem arises when contrary views are stated assertively and promote an activity that has long been known to be dangerous, and has caused a number of serious injuries on building sites over the years.  As a forum, we should collectively try to make sure that we don't promote anything in an authoritative-sounding post  that is potentially unsafe or unlawful.

 

 

 

[Russell griffiths]

Previously I believed I had helped in preventing you removing part of your foot with the angle grinder by showing the correct way in using that, 

just like posting on how not to burn out the belt on your mixer I believed it was of help to you. 

 

If for  one minute you think I post a reply for my own gain by belittling you then you must be a bit confused. 

 

any knowledge i share in an answer has been gained by doing that job many times, earning my living from doing that job, not googling the answer, guessing or asking down the pub, I only deal in cold hard facts of what I know. 

 

You came on with a question about mixers and generators

of course you can stop your mixer with a load in it, and start it with a bit of help by pushing it around, why not. 

 

Because its WRONG 

WHY DO IT, there is no need 

 

it’s about as wrong as laying bricks FROG DOWN, 

putting muck on a dry spot board

winging your perp joints

they’re all wrong, but still get done daily by people with a lesser grasp of common sense. 

 

 

 

[epsilonGreedy]

1 hour ago, Russell griffiths said:

You came on with a question about mixers and generators

of course you can stop your mixer with a load in it, and start it with a bit of help by pushing it around, why not. 

 

 

I came here with a specific question whether a 1000w suitcase generator could power a mid sized electric mixer. No one had a clear answer at the time.

 

Months later I provided an answer as a follow up which is usually considered to be good community practice.

 

You read something that alarmed you, with good reason, but in a rush to ridicule you failed to convey your main point clearly. I had to read your post a few times before guessing you were raising an issue about mechanical care and I think personal safety as well.

[epsilonGreedy]

1 hour ago, Russell griffiths said:

Previously I believed I had helped in preventing you removing part of your foot with the angle grinder by showing the correct way in using that, 

just like posting on how not to burn out the belt on your mixer I believed it was of help to you. 

 

 

This is a bit of a distortion of the thread dialogue. I had been asked to cut a few blocks and quickly concluded I was doing something very dangerous. I came to the forum seeking a completely different solution for cutting blocks. You kindly offered guidance on how to cut blocks safely with a petrol powered cutter using a wooden pallet as a platform.

 

To be honest I am not sure your technique enhances safety because of the complexity of the setup or maybe I misinterpreted your advice. The two dangers I see are (1) mis guiding the tool toward part of the body and (2) loosing one's footing and tumbling while using a dangerous cutter. Leaning over a pallet would seem to compromise the basics of establishing a stable footing.

[PeterW]

2 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

This is a bit of a distortion of the thread dialogue. I had been asked to cut a few blocks and quickly concluded I was doing something very dangerous. I came to the forum seeking a completely different solution for cutting blocks. You kindly offered guidance on how to cut blocks safely with a petrol powered cutter using a wooden pallet as a platform.

 

To be honest I am not sure your technique enhances safety because of the complexity of the setup or maybe I misinterpreted your advice. The two dangers I see are (1) mis guiding the tool toward part of the body and (2) loosing one's footing and tumbling while using a dangerous cutter. Leaning over a pallet would seem to compromise the basics of establishing a stable footing.

 

Safety on sites is inherent and I would never suggest anyone learns anything from a YouTube video or what they read on the web when it comes to using power tools that have the ability to maim or kill. 

 

If I went on the Yachting forum and said I’d bought a 35ft sailing boat for £500 and I’d watched a couple of videos on YouTube and I was off to the Azores in it, I’d probably get a similar response to what you have received. 

 

Not all the self builders and members here are “ordinary people”, there are a significant number of time served trades who are imparting decades of experience for free... factor that into any cost saving on a build and appreciate the value of the advice that is being given please.  

[epsilonGreedy]

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

I'm sorry, but I'm not likely to thank you for making the potentially dangerous suggestion that anyone should "use muscle power to help the first 10 degrees of rotation".  To even think that was a reasonable thing to do shows a disregard for the obvious risks.

 

 

The only discussions about cement mixer safety I can find on this forum were initiated or provoked by me.

 

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

when just a short time ago you, in May of this year, you appeared to be disparaging about those of us here with years, or decades, of experience and admitted that you knew little about trades, when you wrote this:

 

 

I had positive responses to my first blog entries, you seem to be on a personal jihad to find fault with my posts. You even resorted to trying to dispute the term Small Claims Court.

 

[Carrerahill]

On 23/04/2018 at 14:34, epsilonGreedy said:

Prior to mains power arriving on site I will need to power a 550w electric cement mixer, fortunately  I already have a 1000w Honda suitcase generator. Will this cope with the start-up draw of the electric motor?

 

The 2-man pro brickie team next door use a framed generator that is probably 2kw or 4kw. 

We need more details on your Honda genny. Check the rated load (i.e. continuous), it may be 1000W - but they often con you and say 1000W but that is only peak and the rated load is 850W or something.

 

Now, the mixer will be 550W load, however startup will probably be about 1100-1200W for a split second for a motor of that size as I doubt they will have soft start so it is quite possible your Honda will trip out or go into over-current on startup meaning you can't get it going, however, if you are lucky and the Honda can take that load for the split second (it probably will actually as it's not going to overload the winding or inverter circuit - assume it has one as it's a suitcase gen) during that length of time it will start it and once spinning even if you load it, the mixer should not pull more than 550W as that is the loaded motor rating - it will run at much less during empty running.

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

3 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

The only discussions about cement mixer safety I can find on this forum were initiated or provoked by me.

 

 

That may well be the case, but that's only because no one thought to post about hand assisting a powered on mixer before.  Whether that's because no one had thought to do such a thing, or whether that was because anyone thinking of doing it either hadn't posted here, or had just read the instructions for their mixer and found that it was an unsafe practice, or whether it's because some have already gained experience with mixers and had it drummed into them (no pun intended) that it was unsafe none of us can ever know,

 

3 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

I had positive responses to my first blog entries, you seem to be on a personal jihad to find fault with my posts. You even resorted to trying to dispute the term Small Claims Court.

 

 

 

That's an assumption, one that happens to be false, for a few reasons.  Firstly, I have no particular religious conviction, so by definition cannot be engaged in "jihad" with anyone.  Secondly, if I was of a particular religious conviction it would not be appropriate, or within the terms and conditions of this forum, to try to impose my beliefs on another member.  Thirdly, I have absolutely no feeling one way or other about you at a personal level. 

 

Finally, I will state again that there is no such thing as the "Small Claims Court", there is just the Small Claims track in the County Court, a simplified method of making a low value civil legal claim for a limited range of circumstances, that avoids the need and expense of instructing a barrister (via a solicitor), or instructing a solicitor directly who has higher rights of audience, to represent a claimant in a Crown Court or other higher court, as litigants in person are generally accepted more freely, without restriction, as such cases are not heard in the formal setting of the higher court.

 

If you feel that I've tried to correct too many errors or assumptions in your posts, then that is because I felt that there were errors or assumptions there that needed to be corrected, it was not anything to do with you personally at all.

[epsilonGreedy]

17 minutes ago, PeterW said:

If I went on the Yachting forum and said I’d bought a 35ft sailing boat for £500 and I’d watched a couple of videos on YouTube and I was off to the Azores in it, I’d probably get a similar response to what you have received. 

 

 

You would get offers of £15,000 for the yacht or crew on a trial run to Weymouth. However would also be told that with the right approach sailing to the Azores is an achievable objective.

 

In contrast this place is quite hostile to the genuine aspiring hands-on self builder. I blame the boomer wealth bubble that has distorted the UK economy. The self build industry has structured its operations around the assumption that a self builder is a cash rich retiree who will commission a self build via a limited range of options.

 

Although @JSHarris cannot find the thread, very early on I was strongly advised here not to get involved with real hand-on self building, cleaning the site portaloo was a suggestion given.

 

When I said my foundation plan was "dig & discover", the cynical reply here was ha ha what could possible go wrong with that.

 

I have received more positive feedback from a lady who walked past my site the other say and stopped for a chat. I thought we would talk about the weather, but no it turned out she had self built 38 years ago and even hand dug her foundation trenches with her husband. Where have the real UK self builders gone?

[Jeremy Harris]

16 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

In contrast this place is quite hostile to the genuine aspiring hands-on self builder. I blame the boomer wealth bubble that has distorted the UK economy. The self build industry has structured its operations around the assumption that a self builder is a cash rich retiree who will commission a self build via a limited range of options.

 

 

 

Is it?  Really?

 

Off the top of my head I can think of quite a few hands-on self-builders (excluding myself) that are regular contributors on here.  Ones that stand out as having made a tremendous effort on their own, with little or no local help, are builds like @Crofters, on Skye, the brilliant build in the Carbeth community by @Tennentslager, the lodge built by @iSelfBuild, the lovely home that @Declan52 has built for an astonishingly low budget, with his own hands from the ground up, the trials and tribulations that led to @ProDave getting a digger and doing most of the build of his home himself, much the same with @recoveringacademic, who, like me and you, started with near-zero practical knowledge of the construction industry, as well as many more that you could find if you looked around.

 

Sure there are some with construction industry experience self building here too, and doing a lot of the work themselves, people like @joe90 and @Russell griffiths spring to mind, but there are others.

 

Have a good read through the trials and tribulations of some of the builds on here, and read the responses from others to those trials and tribulations, then see if that still, on balance, matches your assertion that we, as a large group of self-builders and renovators are generally "quite hostile to the genuine aspiring hands-on self builder".  My own view is that we are, collectively, quite the opposite, and if anything we probably tend to overwhelm some aspiring self-builders with well-intentioned advice initially.

 

The key to how things go from there is how individuals respond to that advice.  Those that take what they need from it, and get on and do a bit then thank people and come back for a bit more advice are very much welcomed.

[epsilonGreedy]

40 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

We need more details on your Honda genny. Check the rated load (i.e. continuous), it may be 1000W - but they often con you and say 1000W but that is only peak and the rated load is 850W or something.

 

or inverter circuit - assume it has one as it's a suitcase gen) during that length of time it will start it and once spinning even if you load it, the mixer should not pull more than 550W as that is the loaded motor rating - it will run at much less during empty running.

 

 

https://www.honda.co.uk/industrial/products/generators/inverter/specifications.html#eu10i

 

The start up behaviour under load is best described with the sound made by my electric lawn mower when I cut the grass on plot. There is a strange phased wind up to full mower speed as the two devices try to match supply and demand.

[Declan52]

9 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

You would get offers of £15,000 for the yacht or crew on a trial run to Weymouth. However would also be told that with the right approach sailing to the Azores is an achievable objective.

 

In contrast this place is quite hostile to the genuine aspiring hands-on self builder. I blame the boomer wealth bubble that has distorted the UK economy. The self build industry has structured its operations around the assumption that a self builder is a cash rich retiree who will commission a self build via a limited range of options.

 

Although @JSHarris cannot find the thread, very early on I was strongly advised here not to get involved with real hand-on self building, cleaning the site portaloo was a suggestion given.

 

When I said my foundation plan was "dig & discover", the cynical reply here was ha ha what could possible go wrong with that.

 

I have received more positive feedback from a lady who walked past my site the other say and stopped for a chat. I thought we would talk about the weather, but no it turned out she had self built 38 years ago and even hand dug her foundation trenches with her husband. Where have the real UK self builders gone?

Seriously this is getting way out of hand. Can you post me links to where anyone here has had questions answered in a hostile way. 

I think out of the amount of members here who are self building the percentage that are retired would be quite small. 

Doing any actual work on a self build yourself will come with massive risks if you don't have any experience of these tasks. There are lots of posts here where things have gone wrong through just a lack of knowledge and experience. Nothing to do with hands on skills. 

Every single Foundation for every single build that has ever been started is a dig and discovery operation. You don't know what is under the grass until you start peeling it back. Could be rock or could be peat. That's why people do trial pits or even full on site investigations. 

I doubt that when you where talking to the old lady that you displayed the same attitude you do here or she would have told you where to go. 

What is your definition of a real UK self builder? How many of the jobs that need to be done do you have to complete to become a real self builder. 

[LA3222]

Just throwing my two cents in.  This thread seems to have descended into quite a hostile atmosphere and it needn't have.  The OP made a comment, some in the forum whom could be deemed to be SMEs saw an issue and highlighted it.  Job done - what seems slightly distasteful is how the thread then subsequently drew the  vultures in to poke the bear and keep the running argument going.

 

This could have ended about 10 posts ago - it comes across as a bit school playground ish, two people have a disagreement and then the mates of one of them all crowd in to see what's going on.

 

Come on, no need.

[joe90]

23 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

In contrast this place is quite hostile to the genuine aspiring hands-on self builder.

 

What a load of bollocks, this place has given me no end of good advise, advise that would have cost me dear (if I could trust the source). I and others here are benefitting from genuine knowledge from either professionals or people that have discovered (many through ill fortune) how things are done or how they could go wrong. Frankly I have never met such a genuine bunch of helpful people. Although I have only met two of the members I almost feel like MOST are my friends.

[LA3222]

@joe90 has your comment added any value to this other than to stir the pot again (I'm not aiming at you specifically - just you were the last to post!) - I don't disagree with what you say by the way, just the tone.

 

Again I will reiterate my point - is anything being achieved with the aggressive tone of this thread? 

 

Can a Mod not end this saga?  

[PeterW]

Thread locked for 24 hours