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Oddly enough, NONE of the TF companies I approached were willing to offer an inclusive package inc. internal woodwork etc. Some would agree to offer options on external openings, PB, insulation packages and a couple would be happy to contract any and all porrtions of the complete build, but all started with an erected frame of varying spec.

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Prior to building our first self build, we owned a 1930's semi and extended it, almost doubling it's size. That was brick and block with a cavity and a token bit of fluffy insulation in said cavity. To me, then, that was just a "normal" build.

 

When I look back now, having put in the attention to detail to make a well insulated air tight home, it is only now I realise just how appalling that 1930's house was, and the extension was not a lot better.  If I had wanted any degree of sensible air tightness with that I would have had to do a LOT of things very different and put in a lot of work to get the details right.  Sadly, I doubt the average brick builder has much idea how to get the details right.

 

There are several on here building very good brick / block houses but I just doubt many bricklayers know how to do it properly. 

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7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I just doubt many bricklayers know how to do it properly.

 

In my research, I have heard this said many times. Chippies over bricklayers for attention to detail and a pride in craftsmanship. Another issues I heard is about availability: good chippies are much easier to find than good bricklayers.

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44 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

Quoting selective examples from such a diverse range of self build experiences will create an impression that TF is the superior option and obscure the fact that brick & block is the industry norm for small scale development.

 

They are selective because they are personal examples and most of us on here as self builders will only have our own example to base our experience on. 

 

I believe that both clearly have their merits and I wouldn’t rule out either method if I was doing it all again, and I might consider other methods too. Originally we were going down the SIPS route but back in 2008 when we first started to engage providers SIPS was relatively new territory and as inexperienced self builders the TF option just felt like a more mature model with lots of case studies under their belt. Plus when it came to quotes the SIPS option was quite a bit more expensive even when we upgraded to a sort of hybrid SIPS method provided by the TF company. 

 

The OP asked about noise and heat efficiency rather than costs but I still have a very hard job visualising how I could have built this house for a lot less if we had chosen brick and block. 

 

So in summary, TF was right for us at the time, and derisked the build to a degree which was important to us. It got the main structure up and watertight very quickly that was also key as my husband was doing some of the build on his own so it was slower than a whole workforce being on site for a relatively short period. Plus it came in on budget too. TF also seems very traditional in Scotland 

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I've built 6 houses now, 5 TF and 1 ICF.  Of the TF house, 4 were kits manufactured off site, the kit suppliers also being responsible for supplying the internal materials such as insulation, PB, facings, doorsets, windows etc.  Our last house used the Supawall system (injection filled insulated panels).  One of our timber houses the frame was built on site by joiners.  Our current house is ICF.  I felt the Supawall system was significantly better in terms of quality compared to a normal TF panel.  Having built in ICF I think it is superior to TF.

 

Did I compare to block built - yes, I costed it out, but for all my houses, assuming I was employing someone to do the work, it was either slightly cheaper or the same cost to use TF, so I went with what i was comfortable with.  Interestingly, paying joiners to stick build the kit on site was no different cost wise to buying the structural TF panels.  Having moved somewhere where there were two ICF contractors, ICF as a build system became viable and comparable cost wise to TF.

 

A lot comes down to the availability of particular tradesmen.  Where we previously lived, there were more joiners than brickies, so TF was more common.  That may well be different elsewhere.  If you have the skills, time and desire to build your own TF or lay blocks then of course you may save money but if you are employing people to do the work then I suspect you may well find there is very little in it cost wise.

 

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I see this topic in the self build magazines a lot!! Like anything each method has it's own Pro's and Con's! Balance that with the skill of the team doing the build and the end results can vary! I think noise can be an issue with timber frame, slamming doors, impact noises throughout house etc compared to Block/Brick/ICF. I believe brick/block is a also a cheaper option. 

 

That said, in my case I'm very keen on timber frame and I'm taking steps to deal with interior noise and will live with the issue of doors slamming....ensure a solid staircase etc. 

 

Actually not having a preference puts you in a stronger position as you have a wider range of potential companies to choose from.....picking the right one should be more about the relationship and confidence you have in the company / builder with price to guide you than the type of build. Once it's all plastered and covered up it's a home. Unless you want to keep one section unfinished to show everyone?! Best of luck! 

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3 minutes ago, newhome said:

They are selective because they are personal examples and most of us on here as self builders will only have our own example to base our experience on. 

 

 

I feel the new entrant to self-build gets a biased view of the TF/B&B debate.

 

The reason for the bias is that the 3-man brickie team in their tatty transit do not have a voice. The TF companies understand the media and how to influence the market. TF companies buy  adverts in magazines and feed ready-made cut & paste narrative for free editorial coverage, they also buy space at industry shows.

 

A prospective self builder should ask, why are so many block & block homes built in the face of such a one-sided debate.

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14 minutes ago, Stones said:

Our last house used the Supawall system (injection filled insulated panels).

 

Mine too, and it is the only experience I have but it went up to the watertight stage with almost frightening speed and we had no issues with fit. It was like building an Airfix kit! 

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13 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

The reason for the bias is that the 3-man brickie team in their tatty transit do not have a voice

 

Unless you know the brickies in their tatty transit why would any self builder take a chance on them for what is likely to be their forever home? Now I’m not saying that all brickies in tatty transits do poor quality work but track record and some of the risk being owned by the TF company will be important to many of us. 

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11 minutes ago, newhome said:

 

Mine too, and it is the only experience I have but it went up to the watertight stage with almost frightening speed and we had no issues with fit. It was like building an Airfix kit! 

 

When I decided to go with that system, we had an alternative kit quote from Deeside TF.  Although they were cheaper for the same U values, all insulation would have to be fitted on site, and having worked out the time / cost of that, the Supawall wons hands down.  Compared to previous kits where tolerances were very elastic, the Supawall kit was mm perfect.  A lot of time went into ensuring the soleplate was fixed according to the critical frame dimensions, but when the kit arrived and was craned into place (we had one 10 metre panel) it went like clockwork.  Simple quick and effective, with each piece sliding in and interlocking with the next.  It certainly persuaded the contractor I was using that such systems were the way forward.  It was the first time he had built with it, and had been a little reluctant, but having erected the frame in just over two hours, he came to me and said all houses should be built this way.

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29 minutes ago, Stones said:

Although It was the first time he had built with it, and had been a little reluctant, but having erected the frame in just over two hours, he came to me and said all houses should be built this way.

 

Our TF contractor hadn’t used the system before either and said how impressed he was when it arrived and went up. We didn’t have anything that was 10m but it was pretty impressive nonetheless. 

 

 

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On 24/04/2018 at 15:58, K78 said:

When I was last on this forum sips seemed unpopular with most. I was considering Kingspan Tek at the time.

 

Can I ask why you prefer it to timberframe or masonry for self build?

With SIPS you get a weather-tight frame in no time, and the manufacturer does the design for you if you provide general sizes. For a self builder those two things are a big deal, I think. Trying to tackle a timber frame yourself without being an apprenticed joiner would be pretty much impossible -- or at least a protracted and painful learning experience. Steel is similar -- you decide what you want and someone else takes design liability, delivers and erects it. You then have a stable, plumb and level structure to build your floors & walls around.

 

On 24/04/2018 at 17:06, jack said:

 

Are you including design and in-factory manufacturing in making this comparison? 

In comparing timber frame with blockwork I'm assuming the self-builder is the builder, so to learn to put up blocks and then get a satisfactory end result, is achievable. With timber frame, even if you have someone else design it for you, you still have to cut, join, and get it erected plumb. Possibly your experience has been with a timber frame "turnkey" solution provider, and I assume going that route is expensive and akin to getting a kit home?

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50 minutes ago, newhome said:

Unless you know the brickies in their tatty transit why would any self builder take a chance on them for what is likely to be their forever home? Now I’m not saying that all brickies in tatty transits do poor quality work but track record and some of the risk being owned by the TF company will be important to many of us. 

 

 

I will explain using food as an analogy. Do you always dine out at branded franchise establishments?

 

The new prospective self builder feels as bemused as would a hungry alien landing on planet earth in search of a restaurant. Knowing nothing about earth cuisine the alien will logically end up trusting the glossy reassuring corporate veneer at McDonald's.

 

I suspect the same risk avoidance process drives first time self builders towards kit timber frame, the corporate branding showing homes being erected by people who look like computer programmers dressed in unblemished hi-viz vests and brilliant white hard hats, provides consumer reassurance in an otherwise alien landscape.

 

Experienced self builders know the differences are as exciting as choosing whether to buy a 2-dine-for-a-tenner meal from Tesco or Sainsburys. 

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1 hour ago, epsilonGreedy said:

A prospective self builder should ask, why are so many block & block homes built in the face of such a one-sided debate.

A big piece of the debate is about labour -- you can get a brick/block wall built for a reasonable day-rate and no supervisors to pay. At the end of that day you can see what's been built, can fire or retain the brickie, pull it down and start again tomorrow if you want. So there's a level of control there. Everyone more or less understands what a masonry wall does and what it should look like. It's also the ultimate modular system when you think about it -- 440x215x100 units that can be lifted by one person and glued in place. Having said that, I'm no fan. Having every measurement in multiples of 225mm procludes any form of standardisation/repeatability or off-site manufacture, and for me that's a big deal.

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22 minutes ago, StructuralEngineer said:

In comparing timber frame with blockwork I'm assuming the self-builder is the builder, so to learn to put up blocks and then get a satisfactory end result, is achievable. 

 

But only a vanishing small proportion of "self-builders" actually build the superstructure, even if they're involved in a lot of the work that follows. 

 

Even for those that do, the level of practice (and patience) that would be required to learn to lay bricks and blocks accurately and fast enough to make this option feasible is beyond the vast majority of self-builders without existing construction experience. I'm sure such people exist, although I'm not aware of anyone on this forum, as least, who's done this for brick/block. I suspect it's a lot more time and cost effective to go the ICF route if you want to build the superstructure yourself. It's also much easier and faster to build than brick/block as a beginner, plus you often have manufacturer training and support.

 

26 minutes ago, StructuralEngineer said:

Possibly your experience has been with a timber frame "turnkey" solution provider, and I assume going that route is expensive and akin to getting a kit home?

 

My experience, like many others on this forum, was getting a company to erect a frame (timber prefab in my case). We coordinated follow-on trades ourselves.

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It took me close on 9 months to build my block house by myself. I had no digger or telehandler so relied on £20 notes slipped to the driver to get the blocks where I needed them to be. It was a long back breaking 9 months that I would never ever repeat again for anyone or any amount of money. Don't underestimate the toll this has on your mind and body if you are going to go down this road.

 

Its paying a disservice to the brickie that not everyone will do a good job. There are good ones and bad ones same way there are good joiners and plumbers and sparks and on the other hand there are guys who are so bad you wonder how they put food on the table, it's just how it is. Same with going out and buying a trowel, string line and lump hammer and a level and thinking after sticking 3 blocks together that you are a brickie. There is a lot more to it if you are thinking about building a complete house.

 

The main reason for choosing blocks was finance. I simply had none. We used all our savings up cashed in my old endowment policy to get the house wind and water tight as I needed to sell my own house before I could get a mortgage. Each week we could buy a load of blocks and then over the next 2-3 weeks build away until they where done or I needed sand or cement and I just continued like this until one day it was built. My back, wrist and hands loved that day.

 

I simply didn't have the amount of money that a timber frame company was looking up front to go that option. As far as sips or ICF all that was stuff I had only seen on grand designs and was way out of my comfort zone so deemed to much of a risk. Think the cheapest quote from a timber frame company was £55k to get it wind and water tight. I got it there for £32k by doing it myself.

 

So to answer the original question what method is best , there just isn't one. Every one has its pros and cons and everyone of us starting out at the start of our builds weighed these all up and based on what each of us wanted and the availability of trades, materials ,finance and even site location and layout picked whatever one ticked the most boxes. 

 

P.s obviously blocks are better!!!

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1 hour ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

I will explain using food as an analogy. Do you always dine out at branded franchise establishments?

 

The new prospective self builder feels as bemused as would a hungry alien landing on planet earth in search of a restaurant. Knowing nothing about earth cuisine the alien will logically end up trusting the glossy reassuring corporate veneer at McDonald's.

 

I suspect the same risk avoidance process drives first time self builders towards kit timber frame, the corporate branding showing homes being erected by people who look like computer programmers dressed in unblemished hi-viz vests and brilliant white hard hats, provides consumer reassurance in an otherwise alien landscape.

 

Experienced self builders know the differences are as exciting as choosing whether to buy a 2-dine-for-a-tenner meal from Tesco or Sainsburys. 

 

I’ll use an analogy that’s a bit closer to home for me since the worst you are going to get with a rubbish meal is something you don’t like or gives you a bad stomach afterwards. In an IT delivery sense you can take more of a risk with something non essential, such as adding a utility for example, so you can let someone quite junior do the work with little experience. At the other end of the scale with an IT change that puts billions of pounds of funds under management at risk for example, risk avoidance is paramount and takes on a whole different nature,

so there is no way that a change of that criticality would be allocated to the same individual. They might well be able to do it but the risk would be too great to take. 

 

Most self builders don’t have endless pots of money to risk on getting things wrong and having to pay again, so containing the risk is all important. It doesn’t mean that there are never unexpected costs or issues of course, but TF provides some risk mitigation in my view even if it means paying a bit more for someone to carry some of that risk. Plus it’s quite a decent construction method too with a proven track record!

 

And there are far less ‘experienced’ self builders than those who do this as a one off, once in a lifetime thing. If you are building multiple houses (ie more than 1 or 2), it surely moves you into the small developer category rather than self builder? And most self builders get pleasure from choosing the construction method, materials, design. It’s what makes it worth doing, so definitely not a simple Tesco vs Sainsbury’s choice for me. Anyone who feels like that about it probably shouldn’t do it in my view. 

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On ‎22‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 16:31, Dreadnaught said:

 

That's a really interesting comment.  SIPs for the roof only. Attractive in addition as it offers particularly wide spans without a beam. I wonder if any timber-frame company (MBC?) offers the option of i-beam walls and SIP roof? Or whether they would need to be supplied by different companies.

We have an I-beam closed panel timber frame with 30mm cellulose for the walls and roof, so a bit of a hybrid between TF & SIPS.

It feels really solid & very quiet. Erected on site in 4 days including all the internal stud walls, ceilings, intermediate floor and battens for plasterboard.

Airtight OSB for VCL & included airtight tape over all seams.

We have a vaulted first floor sitting room with no beams.

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1 hour ago, Declan52 said:

It took me close on 9 months to build my block house by myself. I had no digger or telehandler so relied on £20 notes slipped to the driver to get the blocks where I needed them to be. It was a long back breaking 9 months that I would never ever repeat again for anyone or any amount of money.

 

 

This sounds like an experience I should understand in more detail.

  1. How large is your home in sq meters?
  2. Did you dig the foundations by hand?
  3. Were you building concurrent with your regular full time employment?
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1 hour ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

This sounds like an experience I should understand in more detail.

  1. How large is your home in sq meters?
  2. Did you dig the foundations by hand?
  3. Were you building concurrent with your regular full time employment?

It's a chalet bungalow that is 220sqm.

 

I know i have a nice shiny sharp spade but I got a digger in for the founds. 

 

Yeah I worked continental shifts so got plenty of time of so basically worked every day for 2 full years with the only days off caused by rain , snow and frost and waiting in materials.

 

I have to add that I had worked on building sites for over 15 years and gained a lot of knowledge and skills and contacts so knew what I was at.

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1 hour ago, Moira Niedzwiecka said:

We have an I-beam closed panel timber frame with 30mm cellulose for the walls and roof, so a bit of a hybrid between TF & SIPS.

It feels really solid & very quiet. Erected on site in 4 days including all the internal stud walls, ceilings, intermediate floor and battens for plasterboard.

Airtight OSB for VCL & included airtight tape over all seams.

 We have a vaulted first floor sitting room with no beams.

 

Nice. Out of interest, which company supplied the frame?

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1 hour ago, Moira Niedzwiecka said:

We have an I-beam closed panel timber frame with 30mm cellulose for the walls and roof, so a bit of a hybrid between TF & SIPS.

It feels really solid & very quiet. Erected on site in 4 days including all the internal stud walls, ceilings, intermediate floor and battens for plasterboard.

Airtight OSB for VCL & included airtight tape over all seams.

We have a vaulted first floor sitting room with no beams.

 4 days! A year later and I have nearly finished the airtight OSB layer, next electrics and plumbing. 

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