Smug to Mug

[Hecateh]

On a number of previous posts I have been very pleased with what I was paying with a fixed price quote and contract in place. Variations allowed for unforseeable items only - so I thought!

 

Initial estimate from builder was 75 - 85k to be looked at in more detail when Building Regs drawings were available.  I had a quote from another builder that was in much greater detail and substantially more expensive.  I asked builder 1 to quote to this spec, without prices, so that I could compare like for like (My first big error).  The new quote included electrics in great detail.  That was the only major thing that was specified not covered by estimate from builder 1.

 

Building regs came in, and as discussed elsewhere on here with ridiculously extensive foundations,(double depth, double width and other details) Extra cost came in at 13k - and builder was very keen to get this as low as possible for me and took some of the hit believing he could make it up later I think, and of course the weather put paid to that..  Then I also had to cough up another 3k for a pump as no easy access to sewers - being under the property and garage of a less then friendly neighbour.

 

Out of the ground I believed we were in the clear and not much else could be unexpected. 3 weeks ago, money going out the budget in a steady flow, I stopped the builder and said that I didn't think there was going to be enough left in the budget to finish and he said he would have a look.  3 days later I get an email, detailing 2 largish variations (6.5k and 1.7k) for work already done but not included in the quote and a list of other things not included and not yet done  The main ones being; internal walls: internal doors; external windows and doors; soffits etc and that only half the drive was covered.  Uh oh.

 

I do believe it wasn't deliberate but it doesn't alter the fact that this was a huge shock.  I asked him to get me the cost of these asap.  This was just before Easter and he promised he would do this over the weekend.  Nothing happened,  I spoke to him as he left the site on Wednesday lunchtime.  'I've had no internet access but I am going home to do 8 hours of paperwork now' he said ' your prices are priority'. Still nothing.  On Friday evening I got an invoice for the weeks work, with a comment that he had just got internet access back.  I normally pay his invoices more or less immediately as he is a small business and has to pay the team. I was busy Friday evening as my sister arrived for the weekend.  Wine started flowing rather early and I wasn't having a confrontation then so told him I was out.  On Saturday, I told him that, I hadn't been retaining the 3% agreed in the contract and that I was now going to retain 3% of the whole amount paid so far (less than 2k but I had to do something to make him focus.  He then started saying he couldn't quote because he hadn't had enough information.  At this stage I had still paid nothing towards this bill.  Technically I have 5 days to pay. I really don't have access to any more money, so I wasn't sleeping or eating and was feeling constantly sick.  

 

To cut a long story short it had the desired effect but really put his back up.  Along with the 'variations' I got a long rant about all the things I have allegedly done wrong.  (Like asking questions and complaining about the length of breaks taken at times) It was hard but I ignored the rant.  I could counter every point and make more of my own but I have an unfinished shell and now is not the time to fall out.  Having got the prices I paid the weeks invoice as I always intended to.

 

The extra costs however came as another huge blow.  Whereas I was worrying about it possibly being 15k it came in at 45k.  Whoah!

 

We had agreed to talk them through on Monday morning and whilst there could be some saving made I still had (and have) no idea where I am going to get the extra cash from.

 

We agreed that we wanted to maintain a working relationship, we agreed that we both wanted a finished house that looked good and that we were both feeling upset and disappointed. He won't admit any responsibility.  In my view, as the builder, he should have ensured that we made sure everything was covered before work started.  I know the cost would still be there but there are things that I have chosen the more expensive route which I wouldn't have done if I had any idea about this.   I accept some responsibility for giving him quote details to match BUT a builder should have spotted missing things than me doing this as a 'one off'.  BIG LESSON

 

Having now had some time to go through it (eleventy billion times to be exact) I have got some suggestions for him.  I have also been getting external quotes for some of the things not covered although I will have to have him do some of them as they are part of other things that are quoted.

 

Saga to continue - I have another meeting with him later today

[ToughButterCup]

@Hecateh, in every build there's one or more 'Oh Dear' moments. And often money is the core of it all.  This was ours. 

 

At this remove, its hard to say anything constructive because whatever we write it could easily sound vacuous or trite to you. But we can say with complete accuracy, you have all of us listening, and looking for practical ways in which we might help.

 

Debbie and I have in part recovered from the shock of our hiccup,  but the knock-on effects of it have taken us not far off nine months to process. We have had to adjust our expectations and look for ways to soften the blow. Now, when we think back to what happened,  we just grizzle a bit, shrug and go down the pub.

 

There will be a way of getting through your hiccup: it'll take time to see it. Keep posting, keep in touch.

[epsilonGreedy]

I am a novice self builder but it seems to me that the original good intentions between you and your builder to deliver a specific house at a fixed price incrementally eroded to a point where you are just paying a weekly appearance fee to the builder for no target deliverables. The latest vocalized positive sentiments just expressed by you and the builder will not solve the underlying problem.

 

You need to get hardnosed with this guy who is letting you down, set verifiable targets and pay when delivered. Is your build weather tight?

[bissoejosh]

The external windows and doors could be a large part of the 45k and if it was me I would want to get quotes myself. When I picked ours the quotes varied massively and shopping around really was worth the effort.

 

 

[ProDave]

Our first house was built (to a bare shell) on a fixed price contract. Every time there was a small change the builder sent a "notice of variation" immediately so we knew the extra costs coming.

 

This time round I entered an open ended contract with the builder. We were having trouble selling the old house, so my instructions were basically "carry on until I say stop" and that point happened when the frame was built and the roof was on (but not tiled) and I have carried on alone since then except for rendering and plastering.  I did get the same builders to supply and fit the windows later on.  We parted on good terms with them fully understanding it was simply a matter of no money in the pot to pay them for any more work.

[SteamyTea]

Did I understand it right that you told the builder that you were concerned about cost and were halting the project temporarily.

Then he whacked you with a bill for other work?

 

If I was a builder, I would do the same as it comes across as a dead end project.  Not how I would like to work, but business is often done that way.

[Hecateh]

4 hours ago, recoveringacademic said:

@Hecateh, in every build there's one or more 'Oh Dear' moments. And often money is the core of it all.  This was ours. 

There will be a way of getting through your hiccup: it'll take time to see it. Keep posting, keep in touch.

Thanks I know I'll get through this - it was supposed to fund me for the next 3 years until I get a state pension and then just top that up.  All depends now on what I manage to sell this for but I sure as hell ain't going to get the more comfortable retirement I was planning on.  

4 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

I am a novice self builder but it seems to me that the original good intentions between you and your builder to deliver a specific house at a fixed price incrementally eroded to a point where you are just paying a weekly appearance fee to the builder for no target deliverables. The latest vocalized positive sentiments just expressed by you and the builder will not solve the underlying problem.

 

You need to get hardnosed with this guy who is letting you down, set verifiable targets and pay when delivered. Is your build weather tight?

That's exactly what has happened.  I did my 'hard nosed' bit as far as I could last weekend and it has cleared the air and although there is still a ot of working out to be done, we are civil again and able to talk to each other

4 hours ago, bissoejosh said:

The external windows and doors could be a large part of the 45k and if it was me I would want to get quotes myself. When I picked ours the quotes varied massively and shopping around really was worth the effort.

 

 

That's exactly what I am doing.

4 hours ago, ProDave said:

Our first house was built (to a bare shell) on a fixed price contract. Every time there was a small change the builder sent a "notice of variation" immediately so we knew the extra costs coming.

 

That was what was supposed to happen - also, if we had sat down at the beginning and done what we are doing now, money could have been saved on various bits - there would still have been extras but not like this

3 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Did I understand it right that you told the builder that you were concerned about cost and were halting the project temporarily.

Then he whacked you with a bill for other work?

 

If I was a builder, I would do the same as it comes across as a dead end project.  Not how I would like to work, but business is often done that way.

Not quite like that - We had been working well together, mainly, the bad weather was frustrating everyone and my neighbours were regularly having a go at them which also added to the tension.  I was getting very concerned about finances as it was clear that there was not enough left in the pot to finish everything that completes a house.   

 

I mentioned it to him and he went through all his records  then came back with a list of variations he had already done without letting me know that they were extras (which is against the contract and the quotation) and an even longer list of variations, including windows, doors, floors, walls, doors, retaining wall on driveway that were not detailed in the quote.  I asked him for prices for these, which he promised 3 times he would be doing as a priority, in the meantime he was avoiding me and basically hiding his head in the sand because he didn't want to face me with the costs.  Although I have 5 days to pay the weekly bills I have always paid them immediately - within an hour or so.  Every week since the beginning of December.  Knowing I had these extra costs but having no idea how much was making me ill.  

 

How would you have gone about getting him to face up to the fact that he needed to give the costs so that at least I know what it was I had to find#/

[vivienz]

In so far as any more work that he does, is it possible to insist that any variations are agreed up front (as you already tried to do) but with the mind focussing condition that if they aren't detailed on the bill each week, then he doesn't get paid for them?  I understand that stuff needs to get done and additional costs are never good, but the lack of transparency is what's put you into such a difficult spot with the cost of all the extras snowballing without your knowledge.

Edited April 12, 2018 by vivienz

[nod]

32 minutes ago, Hecateh said:

Thanks I know I'll get through this - it was supposed to fund me for the next 3 years until I get a state pension and then just top that up.  All depends now on what I manage to sell this for but I sure as hell ain't going to get the more comfortable retirement I was planning on.  

That's exactly what has happened.  I did my 'hard nosed' bit as far as I could last weekend and it has cleared the air and although there is still a ot of working out to be done, we are civil again and able to talk to each other

That's exactly what I am doing.

That was what was supposed to happen - also, if we had sat down at the beginning and done what we are doing now, money could have been saved on various bits - there would still have been extras but not like this

Not quite like that - We had been working well together, mainly, the bad weather was frustrating everyone and my neighbours were regularly having a go at them which also added to the tension.  I was getting very concerned about finances as it was clear that there was not enough left in the pot to finish everything that completes a house.   

 

I mentioned it to him and he went through all his records  then came back with a list of variations he had already done without letting me know that they were extras (which is against the contract and the quotation) and an even longer list of variations, including windows, doors, floors, walls, doors, retaining wall on driveway that were not detailed in the quote.  I asked him for prices for these, which he promised 3 times he would be doing as a priority, in the meantime he was avoiding me and basically hiding his head in the sand because he didn't want to face me with the costs.  Although I have 5 days to pay the weekly bills I have always paid them immediately - within an hour or so.  Every week since the beginning of December.  Knowing I had these extra costs but having no idea how much was making me ill.  

 

How would you have gone about getting him to face up to the fact that he needed to give the costs so that at least I know what it was I had to find#/

I wouldn’t pay any of the exstra costs 

He should know that even if you had given him a verbal instruction

Its not enough 

He needs a written instruction to carry out any extra work

Fare enough if it is something like exstra concrete it isn’t always possible to have a discussion with the client But the exstras that you have listed Sound more like part of the original quote

I would sit down and workout what you think that you owe him

then email the emended figure 

and hold back the payment that was due 

Youve tried being reasonable and it hasn’t worked 

 

one company that I do a significant amount of work for hasn’t paid me October November and Decembers invoices

They are currently refinancing 

Not sure why that should be my problem

 it I wouldn’t dream of having a rant at them

 

He needs to remember that He is working for you

Not the other way round

Delaying his payment may remind him of that 

 

 

[Declan52]

How could he price up your build, give you this total and not include Windows and doors and internal walls. 

Was there an amendment on the bottom of the quote that says this price doesn't include X,Y,Z??

Edited April 12, 2018 by Declan52

[Hecateh]

24 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

How could price up your build, give you this total and not include Windows and doors and internal walls. 

Was there an amendment on the bottom of the quote that says this price doesn't include X,Y,Z??

My argument too.  The quote didn't include them but it didn't exclude them either.  However, it did say it excluded a few things.  Planning, design, council fees etc. Landscaping and boundary wall detail. However it also stated 'Any additional work not included in the above project descriptions.  Any additional works required will be discussed, priced accordingly and agreed prior to commencement.  On this basis I have got him to drop most (not quite all) of the allegedly extra work that he did without consulting with me.  I got about 6k reduced on that.

His argument is that I gave him the quote details (not price) to quote to, so it is my fault they are missing.  

 

He really didn't do it deliberately but that doesn't change anything now.  If I get too shirty with him he will just down tools and walk out.  At the moment we are nearly to gable height at the front, just above pan height at the back and there is still the gable to put on the porch.

 

I want to keep him on side until at least the roof is on.  I feel I could take over project management at this stage and save myself some money.  

He initially said he didn't want me getting other quotes as he was already out of pocket, so I asked him if he was planning to load the quote to compensate at which time he backed down and said he was happy for me to get quotes for individual aspects.  

He's a nice guy but somewhat traditionally male in that (- I suspect women will understand -) If I plant a seed and back off, a little later he'll come back with a great idea.  I won't normally play those games but until I get the roof on - I don't care whose idea he thinks it is so long as I get what I want.  

I suggested that we look at the work that still needs doing, divide it into priority one (Roof, soffits, windows and external doors) Priority 2, that would enable me to 'camp' in the property. And priority 3 - that can wait until I have sold this property.  

 

 

I had prepared a printout of a bit of an excel sheet showing all that needed to be done, hilighted in different colours as to whether it was in the quote or not.  I also changed the type to red for what I thought were priorities.  He went to sit in his van for a whole to match things up with what he had and have a think and came back with the idea that we should do exactly as I had suggested and after that when I had the money I should get quotes but give him a chance to quote to for the individual jobs.  

 

He has also changed from his view on Monday - which was I could only have a couple of workers at a time, to 'I'll throw everything at it for the next week and the place will be a full shell by the end of next week.  I think this was due to me saying that, once the new place didn't look so much like a building site I can get to properly marketing this place and the sooner I can sell this the sooner there can be a resolution.  

 

[Trw144]

Hi, would you be happy splitting out your costs to date and what he is asking for?

 

[newhome]

I'm very sorry to read this. I don't have any really useful advice for you but I do know that most of us will have encountered similar issues during our build. Ours started during the groundworks when we quickly learned that whenever the guy doing the work made a suggestion of how to do something he was going to charge more. Luckily for us that became apparent pretty early on so we were guarded after that and mostly I just said no whenever he suggested anything further, or I negotiated a price there and then when I did want something he suggested. Not quoting for windows, doors and internal walls seems to be a massive con on the part of your builder though. It's like buying a car without seats or windows surely? Would never happen unless specifically quoted like that. I do hope that you manage to come to an agreement with this guy but don't be afraid to walk away rather than be pushed into something that feels fundamentally wrong. It does sound like he wants to stay and complete your build however so hopefully that gives you some leverage here.  

 

[Hecateh]

13 minutes ago, Trw144 said:

Hi, would you be happy splitting out your costs to date and what he is asking for?

 

I would - he wouldn't

 

He's a small one man band - pays his way week to week - If I don't pay on a Friday - his lads don't get paid.  It's a risk I took.  I was confident he was skilled at bricking and roofing. I was confident he was honest and wanting to do a good job and I knew he had little experience of being in control of a full new build.  He's only 28 - and has a delicate ego.  Can't take criticism but - if delivered in the right way, he will go away and think about it and try to put things right - without ever admitting he was wrong.  

 

I am most mad with myself rather than him.  Some things I missed altogether but others I wanted to address but didn't because he was so defensive and overall he's a good builder.  I knew he was inexperienced in my type of project. 

 

Tight budget - cheap quote - nearly alway backfires

 

 

 

 

[Trw144]

ok, rephrase - what do you think your water tights costs will be - including windows, doors and internal walls? Also, what is your m2?

 

[Hecateh]

1 minute ago, Trw144 said:

ok, rephrase - what do you think your water tights costs will be - including windows, doors and internal walls? Also, what is your m2?

 

Internal M2 is about 96.  

Water tight, he is working out tonight - and he knows that, whilst obviously he knows more about building, I spot discrepancies.  Remaining ext walls and all roof is within budget.  Soffits etc is extra but will be set against something included that is further down the line.  I have a local doors, windows quote which he says I should go for as he can't match.  

By tomorrow I should know what my watertight figures are and have a better idea where I am 

[Hecateh]

that doesn't include internal walls at this stage

 

 

[Hecateh]

I have been wanting - and not wanting - to share this for a couple of weeks now. I was too screwed up to hear responses until now

 

[PeterW]

Ok so take a deep breath...

 

Lots of knowledge and contacts on here - use and abuse ..!

 

Soffits have to go on before the roof and are part of the fascia so they should be part of the roof. £10/m should see those done from Eurocell just up the road. 

 

Windows and doors can come from a whole host of places - just push him for quality !

[nod]

 

9 hours ago, Hecateh said:

that doesn't include internal walls at this stage

 

I’m guessing that the internal walls are all stud partitions, which are quick and easy to build and the materials that they are built from are inexpensive 

If any of them are block they would be included in the main structure 

[Hecateh]

15 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Ok so take a deep breath...

 

Lots of knowledge and contacts on here - use and abuse ..!

 

Soffits have to go on before the roof and are part of the fascia so they should be part of the roof. £10/m should see those done from Eurocell just up the road. 

 

Windows and doors can come from a whole host of places - just push him for quality !

soffits before the roof?  That isn't something I had ever considered and roofing is his main thing 

windows and doors I think I have already sourced.

 

Had a company out last night to quote soffits etc and windows/doors - not a bad price (after something like 55% off - think DG companies are stuck in the 90's) but they used old style tactics - 'got to sign tonight to get this price' at which time they would have had to offer to do it for free to get my business.  I don't like that kind of pressure. 

 

I have had a local quote - £4.2k for 7 windows, 2 doors, a 3 panel patio and french doors which I think is good

 

I have been sitting on this for a few days, feeling too stupid to post on here where I know there is support - so I have been doing some research.

[Roundtuit]

23 minutes ago, Hecateh said:

 

I am most mad with myself rather than him.  Some things I missed altogether but others I wanted to address but didn't because he was so defensive and overall he's a good builder.  I knew he was inexperienced in my type of project. 

 

Tight budget - cheap quote - nearly alway backfires

Don't beat yourself up! Nothing ventured, nothing gained. This site is full of accounts of lessons learned the hard way, and many of us will recognise that sick-to-your-stomach feeling. I'll be honest, I'm winging it a bit, and sailing way closer to the wind than I'm comfortable with. It sounds like that, for one reason or another, both you and your builder find yourselves out of your comfort zone, and that there's no real value in going back over who could or should have done what and when.  Unfortunately, when it comes to budgets, maths is maths, but perhaps time for an honest appraisal of the situation and to harness the collective Buildhub wisdom to find a way to work through it and get the best bang for the remaining bucks!

[Hecateh]

5 minutes ago, nod said:

 

I’m guessing that the internal walls are all stud partitions 

Which are Quik and easy to build

and thmaterials tgat they are built from are inexpensive 

If any of them are block

They would be included in the main structure 

This is one area where I think he is trying to recoup some of what he has lost through his own inexperience.  Will be getting quotes for this as soon is the roof is on.  There is a bit of a challenge as it's a split level house.  on a slope so single floor entry level -- up to bedroom or down to lounge

[PeterW]

14 minutes ago, Hecateh said:

have had a local quote - £4.2k for 7 windows, 2 doors, a 3 panel patio and french doors which I think is good

 

Is that fitted inc Vat..? Know the sizes..?

[Hecateh]

13 minutes ago, Roundtuit said:

Don't beat yourself up! Nothing ventured, nothing gained. This site is full of accounts of lessons learned the hard way, and many of us will recognise that sick-to-your-stomach feeling. I'll be honest, I'm winging it a bit, and sailing way closer to the wind than I'm comfortable with. It sounds like that, for one reason or another, both you and your builder find yourselves out of your comfort zone, and that there's no real value in going back over who could or should have done what and when.  Unfortunately, when it comes to budgets, maths is maths, but perhaps time for an honest appraisal of the situation and to harness the collective Buildhub wisdom to find a way to work through it and get the best bang for the remaining bucks!

Thanks

If it wasn't for reading on here about other FU I think I may well have done something stupid over this, I feel so stupid.  

 

He isn't a bad guy, just inexperienced, very young, and not really adult enough to fully accept responsibility although he wants to do the right thing so long as it doesn't cost him. Thank F he isn't on here