Hello

[Ralph]

Hi all,

 

My wife and I have been trying to get our new build off the ground for the last few years. In fact we’ve had planning permission for 2 years. Were in the north east of Scotland, not far from Brechin.

 

The biggest struggle so far has been trying to get a builder that can even get close to the budget.

 

I waded straight into the forum with question on heating and C02 calcs and the response has been extremely helpful.

 

Honestly, hats off to all of you who do a true self build. We’re using a contractor and trades and that has felt like a struggle and we’ve not broken ground.

 

Regards

Ralph

[TheMitchells]

Keep asking the questions and you'll keep receiving lots of help.  maybe start a blog for those of us who arent able to build ourselves.  I can read on with envy!  Good luck.

[Moira Niedzwiecka]

Hi Ralph,

Welcome.

If you have had several estimates from builders & they are consistently above budget it may be that what you are wanting to build cannot be done for the price by using a contractor for all the work.

Is a hybrid of sub contractors & DIY possible?

It will mean loads of time & work on your part but may be a way forward.

[lizzie]

Hi Ralph and welcome to the forum.

 

We are using trades for all work excluding timber frame and slab which were supplied as a package by same company. 

 

I had some fixed price quotes from builders for whole job (brick built house) they were very expensive but the timber frame house we have ended up building piecemeal has come out massively more than the builders quotes we had as we have had so very many unexpected expenses, some extra costs are down to us upping spec and some just unexpected and not budgeted for items ....way above any 'contingency' ......When not using main contractor on fixed price you are open to costs escalating on individual items. You have very little control beyond getting quotes and sometimes even that is difficult and you can be hostage to some of these people who know you need them. I would not do it this way again I would have a main contractor so budgets could be better controlled. We are nearing the end and I still don't have a real idea of how much more money I need, it just runs away like water.  Its almost 2 years since we started on the journey and we have had to pay rent for all that time too, thats a cost I have not included in my figures either.

 

If I were you I would get a QS to go through your plans and requirements to properly cost it and look where you can cut cost if you need to and then consider inviting tenders from selected builders. Your QS/architect should be able to suggest some to invite to tender if you don't have a preferred list yourself. Otherwise as Moira says be prepared to roll your sleeves up and do work yourself to keep costs down.  I have not been able to do work myself so have had to pay contractors for everything.

 

Good luck

[Triassic]

A fixed price isn't fixed, but any price or specification variances should be flagged up to you prior to your builder proceeding.

[ultramods]

@Ralph what is the estimated build cost per sqm and what is the floor area of the house? Can you share the plans with us?

 

Also what is the construction method and u-values?

Edited March 2, 2018 by ultramods

[Triassic]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

The biggest struggle so far has been trying to get a builder that can even get close to the budget.

 

 

I've had the same problem. Even breaking it down into packages hasn't always helped. The gap between the lowest and highest quote for our foundations was £105k

[lizzie]

8 minutes ago, Triassic said:

A fixed price isn't fixed, but any price or specification variances should be flagged up to you prior to your builder proceeding.

Yes agree but any overages are quantified and discussed in advance as you say and so can be better budgeted on to your 'base' price so less surprises lurking rather than my route as having no choice but to have guesstimates for things in the budget - in my experience you cant get proper quotes e.g. plastering, tiling etc whilst still at plan stage. Individual trades all want to 'see' the job before pricing and the on line £psqm guides for various things were way out as far as I was concerned. There is also supply and demand too no work about cheaper prices lots of work waiting list higher prices........main contractor has all his trades on board and can cost and schedule more accurately. 

[SteamyTea]

Get a copy of SPONS, it will give you an idea of the current costs.

http://www.rics.org/uk/shop/books/pricebooks/spons/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsdew8YPO2QIVCCjTCh2oHA72EAAYAyAAEgLMIvD_BwE

And become an eBay hunter.

Edited March 2, 2018 by SteamyTea

[Triassic]

16 minutes ago, lizzie said:

......main contractor has all his trades on board and can cost and schedule more accurately. 

1

 

A friend's gone down the main contractor route and when asked about the cost of any particular trade the answer from the main contractor is always the same £27.50 per hour. The reality is they're all subcontractors and my friend has dubbed them the (place name deleted to protect the guilty).dale mafia. 

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

[...]

. We’re using a contractor and trades and that has felt like a struggle and we’ve not broken ground.

[...]

 

I'm almost sure the issue will be linked to profit margin.

Struggle is the name of the game, ably combated by it's counterpart, persistence.  And the more you combat it , the better you get at being persistent. 

Drop in here for a bit  of encouragement whenever you like, please!

 

Welcome

Ian

[ProDave]

Hi @Ralph

 

What is your actual build budget?

 

We are building a 3 bedroom detached house and expecting the the total cost to be about £220K  We are only achieving that because land is cheaper here, and we are doing a LOT of the work ourselves.  I am sure we will have saved at least £30K in labour costs by the time we have finished.

 

The "problem" for us if we don't nail costs down in every way we can, is the house might end up costing more to build than it is worth. I suspect that may be an issue with you as well?

[Stones]

@Ralph, if its of any help, I could give you the details of the contractor I used for two of our builds when I lived in Perthshire.  He is based in Kirriemuir, so not too far away from you.

[newhome]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

The "problem" for us if we don't nail costs down in every way we can, is the house might end up costing more to build than it is worth. I suspect that may be an issue with you as well?

 

Just to clarify, although I have quoted @ProDave my reply below is to @Ralph 

 

This is very true and I suspect has happened in my case. My husband and I planned what we thought would be a house for us to retire in later on so we weren't always as cost conscious as we might have been as we were building a house for us, not for profit. That wasn't a major issue to begin with as my husband wanted to do as much of the work as he could himself for the 'challenge' and self satisfaction, and it would help to keep the costs down. Unfortunately he got sick half way through and I then had to organise for random trades to come and do the remaining work on a piecemeal basis that cost much more than we had budgeted for, and it was all a bit of a nightmare at times. And now I'm on my own in a house that's far too large for me, and will be selling up at some point, possibly now at a loss although I may just avoid that. I'm not saying that this will happen in your case of course but you do have to plan for the unexpected. There will always be costs you don't plan for. 

 

I wish we had gone with the 'fixed price' quote we received early on from a builder recommended by our TF supplier that would have taken us to the end of the first fix. It would have meant that the house had been built much quicker, and in hindsight it may have been cheaper too given the events that followed later with my husband's health. And I wish we had scaled back on some of the non essentials now. Some of them are white elephants that I never use! So review your spec and review it again, and then again for good measure. Is there anything in there that isn't essential? Are there things you can retrofit easily later on when you see if you do actually need them? Are there things you are getting overly fixated about that cost more than their eventual value? If the cost of those things is holding you back can you force yourself to compromise so that you can actually break ground? Is holding onto the dream more important than getting on with things in the here and now? Have you had someone else look at your spec and critique it to see if there are certain factors keeping the costs high? Have you asked the builders who gave you quotes what they could suggest to bring the costs down? 

 

I don't have much experience of fixed price quotes in the building trade but I do a lot of contract work in my job, and the thing I have learned about fixed price work is that it needs to be based on a very clear outcome, with agreed sign off / quality criteria. There are fixed price quotes that just buy you a capped amount of time and materials effort which is not what you want. For the type of work I do we just go through the change control process if we need something to change post agreement and go cap in hand for more money. When it's your own money there will be a finite amount, and the only person you can go cap in hand to is you. So get a detailed spec in place that very clearly notes all of the things to be delivered, what is to be done / delivered, the materials to be used, what the end result should be and the sign off criteria. This should help to set full expectations on both sides and prevent endless arguments later over what the builder considers to be 'extra'. And ensure that they don't charge you vat either as you will not be able to reclaim it later. You can only reclaim vat for materials purchased in your own name. 

 

I wish you the best of luck with your build. 

Edited March 2, 2018 by newhome
Clarification

[ProDave]

Our previous house was built to "wind and watertight" on a fixed price by an Inverness builder. They generally did a good job. But being on a fixed price contract, as soon as you changed ANYTHING the "notice of variation" would land on the doormat in a  day or 2 outlining the additional cost of that change.

 

We tried to strike a similar deal this time, only to find they were completely disinterested. All they wanted to do was sell you one of their standard house designs, on one of their own plots, as a complete build ready to move into.  They went bust 2 years later.

[Ralph]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

Hi @Ralph

 

What is your actual build budget?

 

We are building a 3 bedroom detached house and expecting the the total cost to be about £220K  We are only achieving that because land is cheaper here, and we are doing a LOT of the work ourselves.  I am sure we will have saved at least £30K in labour costs by the time we have finished.

 

The "problem" for us if we don't nail costs down in every way we can, is the house might end up costing more to build than it is worth. I suspect that may be an issue with you as well?

The original budget in the brief was about £200k with some contingency. That's the build mind you not including the land. The very best quote we've had is £240k but that's after paring things back including completely axing a fairly large garage. 

 

The estimated value for the finished house gives us a reasonable amount of equity, the plot is 1 acre of essentially open countryside mostly surrounded by trees.

[Ralph]

2 hours ago, Stones said:

@Ralph, if its of any help, I could give you the details of the contractor I used for two of our builds when I lived in Perthshire.  He is based in Kirriemuir, so not too far away from you.

If you could I'd appreciate, I'm happy enough with the current contractor who is starting to move the price in the right direction and is fix pricing it but you never know. We've talked to a lot of builders over the last couple of years.

[Ralph]

41 minutes ago, newhome said:

 

This is very true and I suspect has happened in my case. My husband and I planned what we thought would be a house for us to retire in later on so we weren't always as cost conscious as we might have been as we were building a house for us, not for profit. That wasn't a major issue to begin with as my husband wanted to do as much of the work as he could himself for the 'challenge' and self satisfaction, and it would help to keep the costs down. Unfortunately he got sick half way through and I then had to organise for random trades to come and do the remaining work on a piecemeal basis that cost much more than we had budgeted for, and it was all a bit of a nightmare at times. And now I'm on my own in a house that's far too large for me, and will be selling up at some point, possibly now at a loss although I may just avoid that. I'm not saying that this will happen in your case of course but you do have to plan for the unexpected. There will always be costs you don't plan for. 

 

I wish we had gone with the 'fixed price' quote we received early on from a builder recommended by our TF supplier that would have taken us to the end of the first fix. It would have meant that the house had been built much quicker, and in hindsight it may have been cheaper too given the events that followed later with my husband's health. And I wish we had scaled back on some of the non essentials now. Some of them are white elephants that I never use! So review your spec and review it again, and then again for good measure. Is there anything in there that isn't essential? Are there things you can retrofit easily later on when you see if you do actually need them? Are there things you are getting overly fixated about that cost more than their eventual value? If the cost of those things is holding you back can you force yourself to compromise so that you can actually break ground? Is holding onto the dream more important than getting on with things in the here and now? Have you had someone else look at your spec and critique it to see if there are certain factors keeping the costs high? Have you asked the builders who gave you quotes what they could suggest to bring the costs down? 

 

I don't have much experience of fixed price quotes in the building trade but I do a lot of contract work in my job, and the thing I have learned about fixed price work is that it needs to be based on a very clear outcome, with agreed sign off / quality criteria. There are fixed price quotes that just buy you a capped amount of time and materials effort which is not what you want. For the type of work I do we just go through the change control process if we need something to change post agreement and go cap in hand for more money. When it's your own money there will be a finite amount, and the only person you can go cap in hand to is you. So get a detailed spec in place that very clearly notes all of the things to be delivered, what is to be done / delivered, the materials to be used, what the end result should be and the sign off criteria. This should help to set full expectations on both sides and prevent endless arguments later over what the builder considers to be 'extra'. And ensure that they don't charge you vat either as you will not be able to reclaim it later. You can only reclaim vat for materials purchased in your own name. 

 

I wish you the best of luck with your build. 

Thanks for the advice, we're looking at fix pricing with our latest contractor who has been pretty good at making suggestions. The consensus seems to be that the ground works and the glass is pushing things up. 

We've pared things back quite a bit and I'm at the point where the compromises are perhaps going too far and spoiling the design that we really like. 

 

[Ralph]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Our previous house was built to "wind and watertight" on a fixed price by an Inverness builder. They generally did a good job. But being on a fixed price contract, as soon as you changed ANYTHING the "notice of variation" would land on the doormat in a  day or 2 outlining the additional cost of that change.

 

We tried to strike a similar deal this time, only to find they were completely disinterested. All they wanted to do was sell you one of their standard house designs, on one of their own plots, as a complete build ready to move into.  They went bust 2 years later.

Yes this is the issue with fixed price, there is some comfort in knowing what you pay but you have everything nailed down.

[newhome]

2 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Yes this is the issue with fixed price, there is some comfort in knowing what you pay but you have everything nailed down.

 

It’s also much easier to nail everything down if you are an expert in that field. Many self builders are not which means the contractor always has the upper hand. A contingency fund is essential in my view. 

 

[Ralph]

4 hours ago, lizzie said:

Hi Ralph and welcome to the forum.

 

We are using trades for all work excluding timber frame and slab which were supplied as a package by same company. 

 

I had some fixed price quotes from builders for whole job (brick built house) they were very expensive but the timber frame house we have ended up building piecemeal has come out massively more than the builders quotes we had as we have had so very many unexpected expenses, some extra costs are down to us upping spec and some just unexpected and not budgeted for items ....way above any 'contingency' ......When not using main contractor on fixed price you are open to costs escalating on individual items. You have very little control beyond getting quotes and sometimes even that is difficult and you can be hostage to some of these people who know you need them. I would not do it this way again I would have a main contractor so budgets could be better controlled. We are nearing the end and I still don't have a real idea of how much more money I need, it just runs away like water.  Its almost 2 years since we started on the journey and we have had to pay rent for all that time too, thats a cost I have not included in my figures either.

 

If I were you I would get a QS to go through your plans and requirements to properly cost it and look where you can cut cost if you need to and then consider inviting tenders from selected builders. Your QS/architect should be able to suggest some to invite to tender if you don't have a preferred list yourself. Otherwise as Moira says be prepared to roll your sleeves up and do work yourself to keep costs down.  I have not been able to do work myself so have had to pay contractors for everything.

 

Good luck

Thanks Lizzie, I'm probably best kept clear of any skilled trades to be honest and cracking on with my actual job to get the money coming in.
The aim is to get a central contractor on a fixed price and let him get on with it. We've had a lot of builders tender and they have varied by an amazing amount.

[newhome]

15 minutes ago, Ralph said:

We've pared things back quite a bit and I'm at the point where the compromises are perhaps going too far and spoiling the design that we really like. 

 

 

This is such an individual thing for sure and one that only you can decide on . In hindsight (it's always great in hindsight!) I wish we had saved money in some areas and spent more in others. I was responsible for the budget and little else initially (well apart from working to keep the money coming in) so I tried to rein in costs where we had gone over elsewhere and some of those things I wish I had just paid the extra for ultimately as the compromise bugs me in places . 

[Ralph]

@newhome Where would you save and where would you spend if you had to do it over again?

[Ferdinand]

16 minutes ago, Ralph said:

@newhome Where would you save and where would you spend if you had to do it over again?

 

Read this thread about @Visti's cost control modelling, that we all pitched in on:

 

 

[Trw144]

56 minutes ago, Ralph said:

The original budget in the brief was about £200k with some contingency. That's the build mind you not including the land. The very best quote we've had is £240k but that's after paring things back including completely axing a fairly large garage. 

 

The estimated value for the finished house gives us a reasonable amount of equity, the plot is 1 acre of essentially open countryside mostly surrounded by trees.

 

And what size house? Anything unusual too it that makes it more expensive?