Log burner

[epsilonGreedy]

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

 

I remember doing some rough calculations ages ago as to how much sustainable woodland was required to fuel a single wood burning stove.  It's about 7 acres, IIRC.  That means that every single wood burning stove in regular use needs 7 acres of sustainable woodland to keep it going.

 

 

It is odd that the viability of wood burning stoves is defined as the utility of the fuel when used as the exclusive source of fuel to heat an old house that would not meet minimum new build thermal regulations. Even more perplexing is that such anti wood burning opinions are held by those who heat their homes using a portfolio of energy sources, many of which are funded via Government subsidy due to their fundamental lack of economic viability.

 

I currently live in a rented property with a 2 acre ornamental garden slowly turning into the land that time forgot. The energy-fixing carbon-fixing capacity of 2 acres of growing green stuff is phenomenal, I know this because each summer I personally cart 1 to 2 tons of clippings to the giant compost heap. This experience has led me to a conclusion that I want to explore coppicing in conjunction with my new build. Think of the benefits, no Government subsidy so it must be more viable than many alternatives and the supply chain is highly efficient and low energy i.e. just my leg power.

[Dreadnaught]

9 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

coppicing

 

An interesting and age-old idea. Bravo to you!

[Jeremy Harris]

1 hour ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

It is odd that the viability of wood burning stoves is defined as the utility of the fuel when used as the exclusive source of fuel to heat an old house that would not meet minimum new build thermal regulations. Even more perplexing is that such anti wood burning opinions are held by those who heat their homes using a portfolio of energy sources, many of which are funded via Government subsidy due to their fundamental lack of economic viability.

 

I currently live in a rented property with a 2 acre ornamental garden slowly turning into the land that time forgot. The energy-fixing carbon-fixing capacity of 2 acres of growing green stuff is phenomenal, I know this because each summer I personally cart 1 to 2 tons of clippings to the giant compost heap. This experience has led me to a conclusion that I want to explore coppicing in conjunction with my new build. Think of the benefits, no Government subsidy so it must be more viable than many alternatives and the supply chain is highly efficient and low energy i.e. just my leg power.

 

 

As another random fact to throw into the debate, I was asked to give a talk in our local village hall about our house, as it caused a bit of a stir in the village.  I struggled to try and find ways to make some of the stuff easier to grasp.

 

One thing I did was work back from our Environmental Impact Rating, of -0.9 tonnes of CO₂  per year, to something that made more sense.  Interestingly it seems that our house effectively "absorbs" (from zero carbon generation and energy export) the equivalent CO₂ of over over 40 mature trees.  There is not room on our plot to fit more than about ten mature trees, so our house is, theoretically, better for the environment that an equivalent sized plot of mature trees.

 

When talking about subsidies it's worth including all those available for planting trees and managing the countryside too.  They almost certainly exceed the very small subsidies that domestic renewable energy systems get.

[epsilonGreedy]

7 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

When talking about subsidies it's worth including all those available for planting trees and managing the countryside too.

 

 

Fair point, all part of the equation.

 

The most persuasive posts or me so far in this thread have been Lizzie's highlighting the need for neighbourly consideration and the other suggestion that all wood burning stove users create direct or indirect market demand that ultimately leads to felling in ancient forests in Latvia.

 

Rounding off, I still don't accept the respiratory health association. The Clean Air Act following the great London smog did indeed clean up the air for a few decades then something happened that triggered an epidemic of asthma in this country. At a simplistic level one could conclude that clean air causes asthma and wood burning stoves are a preventative measure. I don't actually believe that but my post does at least highlight the wonky science presented here. An effective public policy jihad against wood burning stoves will simply postpone the day we truly comprehend the triggers for modern day lung disease.

 

As to the WHO report linked to earlier, this is not applicable to this country. Since WWII the population has risen from 2.5 billion to 7 billion and most of this population growth has ended up living in poor housing and crowded urban areas. If 3 billion new human beings light a wood fire each morning in shanty town conditions then there will be health consequences but we are talking about the UK.

 

 

[epsilonGreedy]

39 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

One thing I did was work back from our Environmental Impact Rating, of -0.9 tonnes of CO₂  per year, to something that made more sense.  Interestingly it seems that our house effectively "absorbs" (from zero carbon generation) the equivalent CO₂ of over over 40 mature trees.  There is not room on our plot to fit more than about ten mature trees, so our house is, theoretically, better for the environment that an equivalent sized plot of mature trees.

 

 

This is a strong argument. Reading between the lines I think you are saying that with 7 billion humans walking around the only sustainable way to accommodate them all with a decent standard of living and without pressing an environmental self destruct button, is more house design science and not wood coppicing. Yup I accept that but will my local conversation officer who has mandated a particular shade of natural grey roof slate, cute sash windows and a smorgasbord of hand cut brick finishes. 

[Jeremy Harris]

If you want reliable, peer reviewed, unbiased (as it's all reviewed by volunteers, like me) then look at the stuff reviewed by Cochrane.  They remove the biased pharmaceutical company stuff, the biased stuff from other sources and only seriously consider studies where the methodology was robust and the evidence is clear.  As a consequence a lot of the studies that get airtime in the media and on the internet are often found wanting.  Cochrane is globally regarded as the gold standard for medical data, principally as it has no axe to grind, either commercially or politically: http://www.cochrane.org/

[Jeremy Harris]

4 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

This is a strong argument. Reading between the lines I think you are saying that with 7 billion humans walking around the only sustainable way to accommodate them all with a decent standard of living and without pressing an environmental self destruct button, is more house design science and not wood coppicing. Yup I accept that but will my local conversation officer who has mandated a particular shade of natural grey roof slate, cute sash windows and a smorgasbord of hand cut brick finishes. 

 

 

You have to argue the point with the Conservation Officer.  I did, and won.  In terms of sustainability, the frame of our house is made from FSC certified  timber (or the equivalent), the wall and roof insulation is made from recycled newspapers, the cladding is from larch that grew and was felled from a managed woodland 6 miles away and milled 3 miles away, the roof slates are made from recycled plastics and car tyres and we are adjacent to a listed building so had more stringent conditions to meet in terms of external appearance and design than we would have had in a Conservation Area.  We're also in an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty so had them to contend with as well!  If there is a will you can overcome a lot of these challenges!

[Dreadnaught]

4 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Cochrane

 

"Cochrane is a non-profit, non-governmental organization formed to organize medical research findings so as to facilitate evidence-based choices about health interventions faced by health professionals, patients, and policy makers." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochrane_(organisation)

 

Its HQ is in London and was founded in 1993. It is largely staffed by volunteers. "Cochrane has approximately 30,000 volunteer experts from around the world."

[Jeremy Harris]

6 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said:

 

"Cochrane is a non-profit, non-governmental organization formed to organize medical research findings so as to facilitate evidence-based choices about health interventions faced by health professionals, patients, and policy makers." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochrane_(organisation)

 

Its HQ is in London and was founded in 1993. It is largely staffed by volunteers. "Cochrane has approximately 30,000 volunteer experts from around the world."

 

 

If you have the time, feel you have experience that may be useful, then you can be a Cochrane volunteer.  The work is slow, but the resulting analysis of data is often surprising, and sometimes contradicts common medical practice.  It's well worth looking at some of the reports from Cochrane, but because it's such hard and slow work, there are still massive gaps where there are either ongoing reviews or just no reliable data from any known source.

[asklair]

I have a log burner, due to my situation it is the best solution short term. If I had the resources I would not have one due to the information I have read here. I did try to build an "ecohouse" but the establishment would not let me, but they let me pollute our planet with a log burner and the oceans with plastic bottles. The point I am trying to make is I accept log burners are no longer acceptable but like having a polluting car to get to work, the system forces me to use that option, that's not totally true I refuse to give it up, I could cycle to work (5 hours a day).

[Moira Niedzwiecka]

The polluting nature of a WB is certainly a consideration but not the main reason we have decided not to fit one.

After all I drive a 2004 diesel car (mainly because I have no money, all going into the flaming house)

I have mainly decided against a WB because of the overheating issues with the type of house we are building and the cost of a very expensive item that we will get little use from.

 

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

wonky science presented here

Some of us are only giving small snapshot from our own research.

We have had much larger debates on this over the last decade on the green building forum.

[daiking]

6 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Some of us are only giving small snapshot from our own research.

We have had much larger debates on this over the last decade on the green building forum.

 

Had to stop reading GBF, self-righteous twits.

[SteamyTea]

I only go there to tease these days.

[gc100]

On 21/02/2018 at 12:12, joe90 said:

Well I have built a well insulated, airtight ( I hope) newbuild with a small wood burner that has a dedicated under slab air feed pipe. Yes it may get a bit warm for me but never too warm for SWMBO?

 

 @joe90 Did you still have to install a non-closable vent? Apparently the building regs and it recommends a non-closable vent even if the stove is full direct air supply. It seems a HETA installer can fit without the vent if they do the smoke tests (and it passes) in BS8303 . Just wondering what you did?

 

I was planning to do the stove myself as there is no one around here with experience with zinc roofs, air tight houses and don't have any modern effecient stoves.

 

[PeterW]

37 minutes ago, gc100 said:

 

I was planning to do the stove myself as there is no one around here with experience with zinc roofs, air tight houses and don't have any modern effecient stoves.

So keep the stove below 5kw and ensure your MVHR over supplies to the room with the stove .. 

[gc100]

8 minutes ago, PeterW said:

So keep the stove below 5kw and ensure your MVHR over supplies to the room with the stove .. 

 

Why 5kW?

[ProDave]

We have a WBS.  Ours is room sealed with combustion air direct from outside. Ours takes both primary and secondary air from outside, not the room.

 

When not in use it appears to have no aparent impact on energy used to heat the house. It does not create draughts or in any way make the house cold.

 

We do use it a couple of times a week (it is burning now)  With the very open layout of the house it does not over heat one room (room with the stove currently 23 degrees)  Obviously burning the stove shuts down the ASHP and saves a bit of electricity.  It's on tonight as it's damned cold here for the time of year, just 5 degrees today and a hard frost expected tonight.

 

Most of the wood we burn is from our own trees that I am gradually thinning, and local wind fall. I don't buy wood to burn and if I did not have access to free wood, I would not have a WBS.

 

The air quality here is about as good as you will get. Prevailing wind is from the SW and if you look on a map, there is only Dingwall 12 miles away, then next population is Fort William or Ullapool. There is not much in between.  I have twice checked the MVHR filters and they are very clean indeed.

 

So anyone with respiration issues, I can recommend this as a place to come and live.  No Major roads either, the A9 being our trunk road.

 

If you have MVHR and a room sealed stove there is no need for air vents in the room. In fact our stove is rated at 4.5Kw so even if it were not room sealed you would not need an air intake vent.

[PeterW]

9 minutes ago, gc100 said:

 

Why 5kW?

that’s the maximum value where you don’t need dedicated air. 

[gc100]

16 minutes ago, PeterW said:

that’s the maximum value where you don’t need dedicated air. 

 

Ah ok, so we mustn't have a flue draught stabilizer then but won't we still fall foul of the air permeability given its hopefully going to be reasonably airtight? Though we don't need to do an air tight test for our BC.

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by gc100

[joe90]

3 hours ago, gc100 said:

 

 @joe90 Did you still have to install a non-closable vent? Apparently the building regs and it recommends a non-closable vent even if the stove is full direct air supply. It seems a HETA installer can fit without the vent if they do the smoke tests (and it passes) in BS8303 . Just wondering what you did?

 

I was planning to do the stove myself as there is no one around here with experience with zinc roofs, air tight houses and don't have any modern effecient stoves.

 

 

Like @ProDave air feed to our stove is from the outside so a “non closable vent” is not required, building inspector simply asked about its function in an airtight house and I showed him the air feed pipe outside and he was satisfied.

 

[Thedreamer]

A bit unusual here having a suspended timber floor, but when our foundations were poured we put in a pipe so we could draw air from under the floor, not strictly necessary as our stove at 4.8kw is under the limit and can take air from the room.

 

 

[Onoff]

On 28/02/2018 at 12:02, epsilonGreedy said:

I know this because each summer I personally cart 1 to 2 tons of clippings to the giant compost heap.

 

Ever thought of a Jean Pain style heap? 

[epsilonGreedy]

10 hours ago, Onoff said:

Ever thought of a Jean Pain style heap? 

 

 

Thanks for the pointer, never heard of Jean Pain. Right now I aspire to nothing more than walls and a tiled roof.

[scottishjohn]

53 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

Ever thought of a Jean Pain style heap? 

so this what i should do with my 200+trees  I need to fell !-- and no need for ASHP ??

 and maybe not kill the stumps but let the sycamore sprout again

 looks good ,but very labour intensive  for a younger genration i think 

 any new developments on this  idea ,

 will hunt biogas generation systems   for a laugh 

Edited November 6, 2019 by scottishjohn