Given any experiences you have had, what would you choose tomorrow

[Makeitstop]

Hi all.

 

OK, so the question above is aimed at frame material for windows / doors, and, whether any future choice would be wood, pvc or aluminium framed products, whether they be double, triple or whatever glazing. 

 

This is obviously for products of the kind of dimension that all materials could handle, so no 20ft high mega sliders or suchlike.

 

Thoughts, and why?

[Mike]

1st: Anodized aluminium-clad oak with triple glazed, budget permitting. Best all-round performance, durability & ease of maintenance & repair.

2nd: Oak, with double glazing to the south and triple to the north.

3rd: Other hardwood timber with double glazing to the south and triple to the north.

4th: PassivHaus-certified aluminium

 

Never PVC - too many potential problems. I've posted about that somewhere on here.

[SteamyTea]

How about GRP or stainless steel?

 

I think the problem with all material selection is not the materials, but the manufacturing and installation.  Usually material limitations can be designed out.

[nod]

Your back to the same thing again BUDGET If budget isn’t an issue All of the above PVC with good U values are fine I almost went for Alli 

But couldn’t justify the 70k price tag 

Half the purchase price of the plot 

For just windows 

[Makeitstop]

Thanks all.

 

Blimey Mike, 1st choice there would hurt the pockets. Why never pvc?

 

Steamy... never heard of grp in window frames, is it used? What would you choose?

 

Nod, yes I get that re: your own selection. Ally is so expensive, and I'm not sure what the real world advantage is when sizes can be Don in alternative materials. What did you use and are you happy with it?

[SteamyTea]

7 minutes ago, Makeitstop said:

Steamy... never heard of grp in window frames, is it used? What would you choose?

I had never heard of them, in a domestic setting, until someone over at the other place mentioned them.

 

I used to make the window frames out of glass reinforced phenolic resin for the 125 trains.  Totally different criteria though, was all about safety.

 

Try doing a search for them, bound to be a lot of people doing them.

[Russell griffiths]

Aluminium clad timber, triple glazed. 
im in awe of our windows every morning when the condensation is on the outside and the inner frame and glass are actually warm to the touch. 

[Jenki]

As said above it's got to be down to budget. I did get some prices for triple glazed timber /Ali however the quote was around 1/3 of our build cost (including the triple glazed UPVC we went for).

My view was UPVC hinges, beads etc are easily changeable if needed. 

I do wish I'd selected a different front door, I went for a slam lock composite door, this was a big mistake with the high winds we get. But you live and learn.

 

[Redbeard]

The only GRP frames I have 'met' in UK were imported from USA (or possibly Canada - long time ago). User was very happy with them.

[Kelvin]

We have Nordan aluminium clad timber 3G windows. They perform well (checked them with a thermal camera) and look great. The main selling point of the aluminium cladding is the longer warranty (typically) and you can ‘easily’ replace any cladding that gets damaged. While this is true how easy it is depends on which bit gets damaged. If around the glazing unit easy enough. If it’s around the frame then it isn’t. In hindsight I should have gone for 3G timber painted. Also our Nordan front door is a weak link as it’s not sealing properly when shut. I’ve yet to adjust it so hopefully it is just that. 

[Beau]

Having only had wooden windows in the past and just got some  PVC I would now choose PVC. I am sick of the maintenance wood requires. If budget was endless then wood as I could just replace them as and when they rot out. Ali clad wood sounds nice but just so expensive. A friend went for expensive Ali windows and was assured they wouldn't get condensate on them but unsurprisingly they do. 

[Iceverge]

Good PVC every time. The need to have the right hardware and manufactured properly. My parents uPVC 2g is there since 1984 with zero maintenance and apart from a broken hinge and one failed glazing unit it's still perfect. 

 

Bad PVC, much like anything else done incorrectly, is tat. 

[Mike]

7 hours ago, Makeitstop said:

Blimey Mike, 1st choice there would hurt the pockets. Why never pvc?

It would hurt my pocket too, but that's the ideal. FWIW my current project uses double-glazed oak, linseed oil painted (triple glazing wasn't possible due to being in a conservation area)

 

As for why not PVC:

• toxins and pollution inherent to PVC production & disposal- see https://www.greenspec.co.uk/building-design/polyvinyl-chloride-pvc-environment-health/
• impossible to access quality of the PVC used (and in particular the stabilisers required to give it durability) without independent chemical analysis
• plastic visual appearance
• often clunky visual appearance
• surface degradation and discolouration through UV light & surface deposits
• susceptibility to impact damage (depending on location) & difficult / impossible to repair
• susceptibility to hairline cracks through thermal cycling
• questions over the long-term availability of suitable spares - replacement glazing beads, hinges, etc.
• limited life expectancy - typically 20 to 30 years - unless high-spec. But low-spec is often chosen due to lower cost
• uValues often not great (unless high-spec)
• very limited recycling facilities (see also toxins & pollution above)

 

Edited January 11 by Mike

[RobLe]

If you’ve got pre 2000 uPVC windows that are in good nick with internal beads, I think it’s worth replacing the U=2.7 glass units.  We did this 15 years ago - our frames are 35 years old now,  but with newer planitherm one glass and diy foam filled frames(make sure that water can drain).  It’s a tough decision to not change the whole window for a more expensive ‘eco’ one; we could have afforded it - I just hate skipping perfectly good stuff.  Plastic is a problem - throwing a window frame away doesn’t help.

[ProDave]

I am happy with my Rationel Aluminium clad wooden frame triple glazed windows and doors.  At the time they were about the cheapest quote from the quality brands, but that does seem to vary a lot.

[Iceverge]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

It would hurt my pocket too, but that's the ideal. FWIW my current project uses double-glazed oak, linseed oil painted (triple glazing wasn't possible due to being in a conservation area)

 

As for why not PVC:

• toxins and pollution inherent to PVC production & disposal- see https://www.greenspec.co.uk/building-design/polyvinyl-chloride-pvc-environment-health/
• impossible to access quality of the PVC used (and in particular the stabilisers required to give it durability) without independent chemical analysis
• plastic visual appearance
• often clunky visual appearance
• surface degradation and discolouration through UV light & surface deposits
• susceptibility to impact damage (depending on location) & difficult / impossible to repair
• susceptibility to hairline cracks through thermal cycling
• questions over the long-term availability of suitable spares - replacement glazing beads, hinges, etc.
• limited life expectancy - typically 20 to 30 years - unless high-spec. But low-spec is often chosen due to lower cost
• uValues often not great (unless high-spec)
• very limited recycling facilities (see also toxins & pollution above)

 

 

Valid concerns. 

 

Veka who made our profiles are about 60% recycled materials apparently and will take them at the end of life. 

 

We have Winkhaus hardware which is common to many types of windows, not just uPVC. Hopefully it remains available. 

 

Agreed they can be quite ugly. Espically with outward openers, or lots of transoms and mullions. I don't really notice our T&T ones though. It is dependant on the profile you spec too. 

 

 

 

Here's a shot of the ones installed in 1984/5 in my parents house. They're still sound and haven't discoloured or cracked and don't leave in any drafts. I'm not sure of the brand. I think it was German. 

 

 

 

 

When it comes to U values there's plenty of passivhaus spec ones to pick from. 

 

They require virtually zero maintenance as a bonus. 

 

Talking about quality uPVC manafacturers, who do high quality products is incomparable to the cheap stuff we all hate. 

 

 

Edited January 11 by Iceverge

[Makeitstop]

Thanks for the input guys. Interesting range of view

 

Seems ally clad timber is the apparent choice if cash has recently rained a foot thick into our gardens. I see pvc features too, and that doesn't surprise me. Having read a bit of late, it would seem that pure aluminium isn't what many would lean towards. Questions around poor frame values seems to come up a lot when aluminium framed products are discussed, and I cant say that surprises me.

 

From my own experience of doing a rear extension and fitting of Raynaers products, the level of condensation is simply unacceptable. Yes, it may well be in part due to install, and also, somewhat due to it being a kitchen with an occasionally elevated relative humidity to what might be the ideal, but, from past experience with pvc framed products, never have I noticed condensation as bad. It's massively frustrating.

 

My question was simply to gauge what the good folks on BH thought to it, as I have been discussing this subject with son in law, in relation to an upcoming major rear extension to a late Edwardian house. Budget is a constraint (as it often is) but a sound choice is essential I think.

 

My advice has been....... give pure aluminium a miss.

Edited January 11 by Makeitstop

[Selfbuildsarah]

On 11/01/2025 at 09:58, Russell griffiths said:

Aluminium clad timber, triple glazed. 
im in awe of our windows every morning when the condensation is on the outside and the inner frame and glass are actually warm to the touch. Do you mind me asking which company you went with? 

[Russell griffiths]

38 minutes ago, Selfbuildsarah said:

On 11/01/2025 at 09:58, Russell griffiths said:

Aluminium clad timber, triple glazed. 
im in awe of our windows every morning when the condensation is on the outside and the inner frame and glass are actually warm to the touch. Do you mind me asking which company you went with? 

Norrsken.  
in Bournemouth. 

[Tony L]

On 11/01/2025 at 01:31, Mike said:

...double glazing to the south and triple to the north.

 

 

That's given me something to consider.  I was thinking, if I have the budget to add 3G, but not everywhere, I'd start with the south facing bathroom window - to limit solar gain, then two Velux in south facing sloping roof (or perhaps external blinds would be a better choice to limit solar gain, although they provide no heating insulation) then the big fixed window in the north facing sloping roof (no external blinds here, & the sun will come in during the height of summer), then perhaps the rest of the first floor (in the hope that I won't need any first floor heating in winter, or at least Autumn/Spring).

 

Is this not a sound strategy?

 

I was left with the idea from another BH thread that for heat insulation, depending on the window size & shape, I may see the same benefit for less outlay, if I upgrade to thermally broken lintels instead of upgrading from 2G to 3G.

 

Sorry, @Makeitstop. I have no experience to draw on & tell you about.  I'm only just out of the ground with my build.

 

 

 

 

[Iceverge]

3g everywhere is best but if you have to choose to make compromises then proper wind and air sealing is massively more important than U values. 

 

This obviously eliminates any kind of sliding brush seals. Look for triple rubber seals that work by being compressed between the frame and sash. Pay attention to the rubber welding in the corner of the seals as this is an area often skipped.

 

Use a separate concrete precast lintel on each leaf of the cavity and save some money over the worse performing catnic ones. 

[marshian]

On 11/01/2025 at 14:14, Iceverge said:

Good PVC every time. The need to have the right hardware and manufactured properly. My parents uPVC 2g is there since 1984 with zero maintenance and apart from a broken hinge and one failed glazing unit it's still perfect. 

 

Bad PVC, much like anything else done incorrectly, is tat. 

 

Same here all the windows and doors replaced with PVC double glazed back in 1994 still got them 30 years later - glazed units might not be up to current regs but they all still seal perfectly no leaks or drafts - never had a single glazed unit fail and they haven't gone yellow either but they were the best quality units we could find.

 

Neighbour is on his 3rd set of windows and doors and he's only been in that house 20 years - first set to replace aluminium framed originals, they went yellow in a few years and then one by one the glazing started failing - most recent set has already had glazing units replaced

 

Buy cheap rubbish you need to buy it more often

[Benpointer]

On 15/01/2025 at 16:10, Russell griffiths said:

Norrsken.  
in Bournemouth. 

We went down to see Norrsken last week and were quite impressed, so that's good to hear. 

 

However, I do quite like the look of Internorm's HV 450 Alu-clad triple-glazed + blind + outer-pane units (so effectively quad-glazed).  I suspect we would only be able to afford one window though and would have to board up the rest of the openings... which may be sub-optimal.

Edited 11 hours ago by Benpointer