Alu clad window suppliers

[Pip B]

We used velfac windows - great product and thinner frames than some. Very happy with them. Absolutely don’t use Passivlux as the distributor or installer - very poor customer service. 

[marmic]

Hi all, glad I've found this discussion which confirms to me yes it's a very mixed bag out there!  We commence soon on a timber frame passivhaus project and need to make some decisions on windows/doors.  Seems to be plenty of experience here and wondering if anyone can narrow down which suppliers/manufacturers offer supply and install please to high standards, which in theory de-risks things.  Have been trawling around websites and straightforward info rarely obvious. (i wouldn't place two orders for separate supply and install).   And with sensible payment terms.

 

Currently only spoken to one (no names!) at early stages including a quotation. On paper seemed a very likely choice and i don't doubt the quality (albeit not checked further as yet) but having spoken further with them they insist on unreasonable payment terms wanting the whole lot before anything installed, which in my book is completely unreasonable as leaves nothing on the table as a lever if they get anything wrong - which the chap I was talking to said was not possible, and that if there were any errors it would be the timber frame company! Arrogant?

 

many thanks

[zzPaulzz]

I’m 8 weeks from having to make a decision on our windows and doors for our MBC passive frame. I hope to get passive certification so performance is important. Rationel, VELFAC and Nordan are keenly priced but I think the single weather seal they offer might be a problem longer term. Nordan have good performance data. Internorm are top quality but don’t do outward opening French doors which is a problem as we have two. Norrsken are similarly priced but I haven’t seen they can meet Part Q yet. I have a few more interesting options on the go but don’t have a price to compare with yet. Then there’s installation and warranty questions. It’s a minefield! 

[markharro]

We also used the MBC passive frame and used Uniwin windows!

[zzPaulzz]

16 minutes ago, markharro said:

We also used the MBC passive frame and used Uniwin windows!

Happy with them Mark? 

[markharro]

Yes we are. Good quality/price. The other thing is that the team at Uniwin are great. Very pleasant to deal with and patient!

[marmic]

thank you.  on my call list for tomorrow 😀

[marmic]

great conversation with Uniwin - unfortunately we are too far south for them to install.  But if we end up going supply only route will definitely be talking to them!

[flanagaj]

On 21/10/2024 at 12:38, garrymartin said:

In my research notes, I have a comment that Nordan are not highly rated - @Kelvin and @saveasteading have them and may be able to provide their views. They are on my "B" list of companies, as are Nordvest but I have no notes or commentary on Nordvest.

 

Rationel are on my "A" list but I would expect them to cost slightly more. Have you looked at Norrsken (also on my "A" list - made by Viking Windows)?  @Thorfun @Russell griffiths @Tosh and @MikeSharp01 have them and might provide some opinions.

 

 

Very useful!  Thanks

[zzPaulzz]

I went for 21 Degrees. Other than Internorm they are the only vendor offering double weather seals on windows and doors. Unlike Internorm they also offer inward and outward opening doors. Norrsken were a close third but their doors only have single weather seals. NorDan likewise. Rational were good value but a step down in quality. 

[marmic]

We have decided to use Nordica, supply and install inc air tightness and weather seals (we are building to passivhaus high performance).  Will be placing order very soon. They use Viking and Slowinscy. We are going for the latter with Lumis windows. Less cost and performance fine. They also communicate on a human level and clearly know what they are doing. Will update here in Autumn..........

 

Nordan were close at one point using an approved partner to install, but completely lost confidence - we have thick walls with the windows being set central to the insulation therefore set back - which also reduces summer sun. Our openings are flat, no cavity -  they just didn't get the need to increase the base of windows to enable a fall on the extended sills. and splitting the package creates blame issues if anything goes wrong. And they don't offer extended sills - these would have had to be supplied by installer.  And we didn't want ply packing window up and ordering underheight to allow for fall - which was suggested!

 

Supply only which we had considered:  Some would have been absoutely fine had we decided to do it this way.  But some quite the opposite!  For example, 21deg didn't even bother sendng a quote and didn't want to have a conversation.  Maybe they have more than enough business anyway and can be selective? We tried talking to them about other items too inc mvhr/pv (which they did respond on) as seemed sensible reducing number of suppliers and thought they would be super keen with added value but don't think they were bothered - separate contacts for each department and seemed rather disjointed. Had the impression there wasn't in depth knowledge either.  Dismissed them mainly due to disinterest on windows/doors.  We also decided supply and install anyway, also for pv/mvhr.

 

Other supply and install offers which would have been fine simply wanted way too much money. 

 

Norrsken which gets lots of mentions seemed to initially tick the boxes on the surface with supply and install and had been recommended  - but once i'd dug deeper these boxes were unticked.   Uncomfortable exclusions and caveats such as weather seals/air tightness. Also mistakes on quote (which they didnt correct when flagged) and insisted they were manufacturers which i found annoying  - they use Viking too as we all know and were expensive in comparision to others offering - yes rebranding is common in all industries and fine, but why lie when asked!! Sales chap arrogant - I think must have worked in double glazing in the 80's!

 

I speak honestly and only as I find..............

 

be careful out there!

 

[zzPaulzz]

FYI, I understand Norrsken have been bought by Viking now. Sales guy was fine with me, very responsive and knowledgeable. Ultimately it was the product that let them down. Weird how we have different experiences, feels like luck of the draw. 

Never came across Nordica! 
21degrees have been good though also had pricing errors. It pays to look very closely at everything. Also have thick walls. They did tell me to reduce the frame height to allow for packing to create the fall. I didn’t think to ask them to increase the frame base height! Packing ranges from 6mm to 15mm depending on wall position.  They offered to install but the travel distance made them £2k more expensive than a local installer. I might regret that saving if the windows don’t fit. 

[MikeSharp01]

13 hours ago, marmic said:

Uncomfortable exclusions and caveats such as weather seals/air tightness.

We have Norrsken and air tightness is perfect- we scored 0.2 on PH basis with only the locks leaking a bit so we put the keys in for the air test and even without them blocked I don't suppose there would have been a measurable difference but the whistling was annoying before we blocked them. 

[Nick A]

Hi everyone - we’ve just completed a build in the Outer Hebrides and purchased 17 Rationel Frames made up of x3 3.5metre sliding window doors, 3 entry doors and 11 windows. They cost us over £20k in total and I expect the current cost would be much more if ordered today. 

I would very much warn against anyone buying Rationel, especially in a more demanding environment.

 

The particular issue has been with 2 of the 3 entry doors. They don’t supply Aluclad doors but the AuraPlus doors are laminated timber and interestingly, whilst they claim 20-40 year lifespans on their website, their guarantee on doors is only 5 years. 
 

The entry door to our small annex started to blister / delaminate after about 18 months of use and was replaced under warranty.

 

However, the replacement door, and the main house entrance door, have both started to delaminate completely at their foot, one on the jamb edge and the other on the hinge edge. They are clearly not manufactured to be as durable as they should and it’s been a real battle to get these two door replaced. Both are still just within the 5 year guarantee and at first the manufacturer, Dovista, tried to blame work we had done for the failure of the door seal on the annex replacement door, but to be frank, that was just b******s! It was because the replacement door was too tight for the original frame.

 

Their supplier in Scotland has been very helpful, but Dovista has only finally agreed to replace both when they saw that exactly the same problem was happening to both doors. So we are now awaiting the fitting of the replacements but my heartfelt advice would be AVOID. The attached pictures tell the story.

[MikeSharp01]

That looks bad, at least they are going to replace them, but that does not exclude poor design.

[zzPaulzz]

Rationel were the cheapest of the suppliers we explored but I dropped them very quickly but only because of their window handles  12 months later and I have a longer list of reasons. I don’t understand why MBC promote them. 

[Nick A]

2 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

That looks bad, at least they are going to replace them, but that does not exclude poor design.

Yep!

[Nick A]

On 21/10/2024 at 17:00, eros_poli said:

Something a local sales rep for Rationel has brought up, against Nordvest. Any thoughts?

 

- they have been unable to supply any testing certification to confirm compliance with PAS24:2014 or equivalent testing standard which is a requirement for Part Q. I appreciate that you don’t necessarily need to have this, and a Building Inspector may still sign-off on the windows if their construction and hardware is sufficiently robust, but it may be trickier for insurance and building warranty purposes where they often take a less nuanced view. 

That takes some cheek! Please see my real world experience of Rationel below. 

[Mr Punter]

5 minutes ago, Nick A said:

That takes some cheek! Please see my real world experience of Rationel below. 

 

From the photos that was seriously poor.

 

I think that @ProDave has Rationel and is in Scotland.

 

I have had IdealCombi and Velfac, but I think some of the Velfac front doors are Rationel.  All part of Dovista.

[Kelvin]

Our Nordan windows have been in 2 years and we’ve had no issues. There were some installation issues including them not doing deep enough cills for our construction so I had to get some made up but there was no impact to the warranty because of this, obviously if I make a claim that might be different. This did cause us some significant headaches and delays but it was down to Heb Homes as they ought to have detailed this ahead of the windows going in. That said I don’t know why Nordan don’t do deeper cills as I reckon a lot of the houses they go in will need them. Nordan also have very poor logistics when sending replacement long aluminium trims. I ended up with 4 faulty trims due to scratches and them getting bent in transit. I told them to use the strong cardboard tubes that tiling trim comes in. But no they send them wrapped to a bit of wood. 
 

We also had a few of the clip on internal seals come loose just after fitting. These were easy enough to fix. My only complaint is with the French door which isn’t as air tight at the top as I’d like on one of the doors. They are adjustable and I’ve yet to adjust it so I think I can probably fix that. Our air tightness score was 0.44 so it’s not having much impact.