Jeremy Harris Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, v4169sgr said: @JSHarris Thanks for the additional comments. I didn't really want to turn this thread into a rehash of the relative merits of GHSP vs ASHP, and am not strongly tied to one solution or other, but would like to maximise independence from utilities, if it seems practical to do so without sacrificing the opportunity to build the house in the first place. One thing I am deeply conscious of any future dwelling is that it should be a very low noise environment inside, and by that I mean eliminating buzzes, hums, etc as far as possible. I have a family member who can hear and is bothered by the noise of low energy bulbs (not LEDs!). So, doesn't your ASHP make a noise like an extractor fan? And what about icing up in winter / COP suffering in cold weather? A key benefit of a borehole GSHP is access to a year round near constant source or sink of thermal energy. That having been said, 0.5 - 1 kWh is a high cost indeed for pumping water up a borehole! How long would one have to run that monster motor per day to satisfy the needs of a typical household's clean water needs (excluding flushes, irrigation etc)? Modern inverter ASHPs are very quiet indeed. Some here have visited our build and heard the ASHP running, and there is barely any noise at all outside and none whatsoever inside the house. It's no where near as noisy as an extractor fan, and defrosting is only a problem if the set up is poor - set it up properly and it doesn't need to defrost. I have written up loads on here about this, as I spent a lot of time optimising our system. What I can say is that there is a great deal of duff information around on the web about ASHPs, that I think dates back to the older non-inverter drive models. Trust me, I'm an energy-saving fanatic, and there really is no appreciable difference between a good ASHP and good GSHP running from a sealed collector loop. If anything, the GSHP will make more noise, as it has a powerful circulator on the primary. The holiday let we went to that had a water source heat pump was very noisy indeed, so noisy that we had to try and turn the heating off overnight. Our borehole water pump is a small one, as our water level is only around 4m to 6m down from the surface, and it uses around 650 W, and runs for perhaps an hour or two per day. It runs whenever a lot of water is being drawn off, so when showers are being run, etc, plus it runs for around half an hour once every two days when the filter runs through its backwash cycle. If you turn on a lawn sprinkler then the pump will run most of the time that is on. I found this out when we first laid new turf, and had to keep it damp. The same goes for things like washing the car, pressure washing the drive etc, as long as you're drawing a fair bit of water the pump will run. We have two 300 litre accumulators, that store around 150 litres of water each at around 3.5 bar, that gives us a buffer to both stop the pump cycling too often and also to provide some emergency water if the pump fails. I keep a spare pump, but it is about half a days work for me to pull the pump string out of the borehole, swap everything over, remake and test the pipe and cable connections and then drop the new string back down again, together with the couple of hours or so that it takes to disinfect the borehole afterwards and pump it clear. Edited August 25, 2017 by JSHarris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 13 minutes ago, Ferdinand said: Yes, but can he build a 14 inch naval gun out of a set of bagpipes and a crate of whisky? No but if you find one he could organise it's recovery, shout orders, handle the press and take photos (from a safe distance): (This was back in '97 in his previous life down at Reculver clearing Dambuster's prototypes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 23 minutes ago, JSHarris said: Some here have visited our build and heard the ASHP running Or not heard it. MikeL, over at the other place has a GSHP that makes more noise, still not intrusive as it is positioned in a utility room. If you can get your heating load down to circa 1 or 2 kW, then you are hard pressed to need anything other than a resistance heater. My place has a heat load of less than 1 kW and I just use a fan heater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Re noise of ASHP's For a start a well insulated house with triple glazing won't hear much outside noise for a start. So a monoblock ASHP will have all the "noisy" bits outside and quite apart from the fact they don't make much noise, what little noise they do make is outside the house. Compare that to a GSHP where the circulating pump and the heat pump itself is inside the house. Even though that is not particularly noisy, the noise it does make is inside the house, so more likely to trouble someone who is sensitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) 26 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Or not heard it. Not heard it is right - you've stood right next to our ASHP when it's running at full chat, and have heard how little noise it makes, Edited August 25, 2017 by JSHarris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryE Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Personally I'd ignore formal PHPP certification as it has little worth to you or on your market value, and concentrate on identifying your own design goals, then you understanding how these constrain / influence the design. Within these constraints, try to keep it as simple as possible. E.g. ASHP as most others have said. Mains water and sewage. Walls of glass are loved by architects but are a pain in the arse for the occupants. Even the top range have a very poor U value compared to a decent twinwall frame or equivalent. Decrement Delay Factor absolutely terrible. Excess solar gain even with electronic shuttering. Privacy issues from neighbours and passers by. IMO, only use glass walls when you feel that the connection to the outside is essential to the room and you can control the privacy issues. Think about the build dynamic and subs. Keep this simple and keep control. I personally would strongly endorse an MBC package as this wraps a high percentage of the risks in a single supplier that many here can personally endorse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stones Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Another voice confirming the views already stated. We have an ASHP, you can't hear it inside the house. I've written a bit about our system and how it is performing here: I previously looked at GSHP vs ASHP when we were looking to swap out the heating system at our old house. Our heating demand and DHW were 5000 kWh / yr each. A GSHP was MORE costly to run, even though CoP was better, because of the circulating pump running costs. As heating and DHW demand increased, so GSHP started to make more sense. The only real selling point of GSHP, and the one concentrated on by all of the installers was 'how much you'll make in RHI payments'. Skewed subsidy really isn't a sound basis on which to base your decision. Do a cost analysis once you've calculated your heating and hot water requirement to see which type of system/technology is going to suit your lifestyle. It's very easy to get into your head that a system with the highest stated efficiency is the one to go for, when the reality is there are many other options which may be better suited to your requirements and the level of comfort and control you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Our ASHP is on the far side of our garage from the house, so it'd be pretty hard to hear even if it did make noise. However, if I stand beside it in heating mode (ie, not on full blast for DHW), I have to hold my hand in front of the fan to determine whether it's actually on. I don't know how much noise it makes when it's doing DHW, as I'm not generally up at the time it's on (4-6am). As Dave said above, if you have a well-insulated house and triple glazing, you won't hear it anyway. We have a train line that runs quite close to our garden and you can only barely hear that a train is passing when it's very quiet and you listen for it. If a window is open it can be quite loud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey_1980 Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Our ASHP is right outside our Playroom window, by the main hallway to our house and you can't hear it running when in the room or hallway with the windows shut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) On 25/08/2017 at 07:30, Ferdinand said: Yes, but can he build a 14 inch naval gun out of a set of bagpipes and a crate of whisky? For the record. 1 - drink whisky. 2 - imagine naval gun whilst in drunken stupor. Edited August 30, 2017 by Ferdinand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v4169sgr Posted August 29, 2017 Author Share Posted August 29, 2017 Thanks again for everyone's replies on this topic. It's been a busy bank holiday ! I've actually been up and had a look around the site. Lovely spot. Good location. Not too much road noise: to be expected for a through road of its type. Really nice people thereabouts, quite happy to spare the time to talk. The site is in amongst the trees by the side of the road. Four trees have been cleared from the center of the site. The two protected beech trees by the road are nice specimens though in need of crown lifting. There are various other deciduous (beech, hawthorn ...) trees around the edge of the site, inside the boundary. There's quite a bit of overhang from the larger trees. Right at the back of the site just in front of the west boundary there's a small brick and flint spoil heap, and a vaguely linear trench / ramp on which a few of the trees have grown. Just to the left of that there's a really decrepit small wooden shed. There are records showing a small cottage near or on the site from about 1850 to 1950. Barbed wire and post fencing, west and south, in poor condition. A fairly solid looking panel fence to the north, separating the site from a nearby property. Center of the site has a summer's growth of nettle & sloe: looks undisturbed. Ground not level but reasonably flat with undulations +/- 0.5m. Sight line to the right of a proposed entrance between the two beech trees doesn't look all that great due to a tall hedge right up against the road to the south. Alright to the left. For a single story dwelling plus room for parking etc to be placed on site, there wouldn't be a lot of room to spare. It would be quite tight round the sides. In my view, likely not a practical proposition without adding land to the site. The site had been the subject of a previous planning application, first for a two storey dwelling, then for a single storey house. Both were refused, and the two storey application was appealed and won. The following condition has been attached to the appeal decision schedule of conditions: Before development takes place, a Tree Protection Plan, Arboricultural Impact Assessment and Method Statement which shall take account of all development which is being undertaken within the RPA of the retained trees, shall be submitted to and approved in writing by the Local Planning Authority. The development shall be carried out in accordance with the approved details. So just wondering in addition how much flexibility there would be to site any house further back from the road, even if land were later added to the site (to the west). Some of those retained trees would have to go - and be replaced by new specimens elsewhere. The other thing that is quite apparent is how shaded any building would be if built in the position on the OPP. Although there is a clear space of about 15 * 15 m in the center, at least some of any house would be overhung by the existing mature trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 A few photos would help, or a Google Maps reference.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 9 hours ago, v4169sgr said: Before development takes place, a Tree Protection Plan, Arboricultural Impact Assessment and Method Statement which shall take account of all development which is being undertaken within the RPA of the retained trees, shall be submitted to and approved in writing by the Local Planning Authority. The development shall be carried out in accordance with the approved details. So that's all pretty much boilerplate stuff - can be done yourself with a copy of the regs. RPAs (root protection areas) are easily calculated and it's about not digging or putting stuff in them. It is also a bit academic. I've just built a house where the 5ft deep footings are less than 3ft from a reasonably mature sycamore. In the entire trench there wasn't a single root from that tree ... but the RPA said I would lose 30% of its root zone. Also all depends on the soil - any hint of clay and you will be in expensive engineered foundation territory..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 (edited) One thing to bear in mind quietly is that it may be easier to remove some things yourself (if circumstances are conducive to this) rather than put them into the planning system via a ground survey, eg someone here had iirc "lead contamination" come up on their Report, which turned out to be paint stored in a since-removed old shed some time previously. Innthat case it may have been easier just to have dug out the soil, cart it away, and remake the ground. Then leavel grass to grow. Once something is in the system it stays visible and if you have objectors they will nail you to the wall on it every time. In my case we treated single small bush of Knotweed, with evidence, before we sold our pot with permission. The next lot of surveyors made teeth-sucking noises because they found a dead stem lying on the ground (lesson learnt), and it is still there in the conditions a couple of Planning Applications later. Ferdinand Edited August 30, 2017 by Ferdinand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caliwag Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Hi Ferdinand, Did you manage to pick up my PM out of curiosity? Cal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v4169sgr Posted August 30, 2017 Author Share Posted August 30, 2017 (edited) On 30/08/2017 at 06:01, recoveringacademic said: A few photos would help, or a Google Maps reference.... Indeed. Just getting the hang of Google Photos ... View over the center of the site, looking south: And to the western edge Derelict shed: Small spoil heap Site from the road. Parts of the two TPO beeches are shown to the edges of this photo Edited September 1, 2017 by v4169sgr getting the hang of the forums lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v4169sgr Posted August 30, 2017 Author Share Posted August 30, 2017 I think there is an unadvertised image size limit. How do I deal with that? I am 'inserting image from URL' from Google Photos, and don't want the faff of having to resize etc. Once I know that, I can finish editing this post lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v4169sgr Posted August 30, 2017 Author Share Posted August 30, 2017 14 hours ago, Ferdinand said: One thing to bear in mind quietly is that it may be easier to remove some things yourself (if circumstances are conducive to this) rather than put them into the planning system via a ground survey, eg someone here had iirc "lead contamination" come up on their Report, which turned out to be paint stored in a since-removed old shed some time previously. Innthat case it may have been easier just to have dug out the soil, cart it away, and remake the ground. Then leavel grass to grow. Once something is in the system it stays visible and if you have objectors they will nail you to the wall on it every time. In my case we treated single small bush of Knotweed, with evidence, before we sold our pot with permission. The next lot of surveyors made teeth-sucking noises because they found a dead stem lying on the ground (lesson learnt), and it is still there in the conditions a couple of Planning Applications later. Ferdinand From the appeal decision document: It is intended to remove 4 self-set trees from the site, however, I note that the Council’s tree consultant has no objection to their removal and nothing I have seen in submissions or on site would lead me to a different conclusion. The rest of the trees are to remain and a new hedgerow is to be planted to the front of the site to replace the existing hedge which is in a poor condition. Consequently, the proposal would not affect the wooded character of the site. [...] The only point at which the proposed dwelling would be visible is from the access, other than glimpses through the trees. Moreover, the proposal is an outline application and consequently, I am satisfied that a scheme could be designed that would not detract from the rural wooded character and appearance of the area. Consequently, I consider that the proposal would not undermine the key visual features of the landscape type. This seems quite restrictive. Removing trees on the west side of the site may affect views from a property well set back from the road to the SW, though there is another belt of trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v4169sgr Posted August 30, 2017 Author Share Posted August 30, 2017 15 hours ago, PeterW said: Also all depends on the soil - any hint of clay and you will be in expensive engineered foundation territory..... According to a geological survey of the site, the underlying is sand / gravel on chalk. So no issues there ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crofter Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 9 hours ago, v4169sgr said: I think there is an unadvertised image size limit. How do I deal with that? I am 'inserting image from URL' from Google Photos, and don't want the faff of having to resize etc. Once I know that, I can finish editing this post lol No limit... and I don't think it would apply anyway if you are trying to inser a url rather than actually upload the photos. Try downloading the photos to your own computer, and then add them to your post as attachments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v4169sgr Posted September 1, 2017 Author Share Posted September 1, 2017 On 31/08/2017 at 07:50, Crofter said: No limit... and I don't think it would apply anyway if you are trying to inser a url rather than actually upload the photos. Try downloading the photos to your own computer, and then add them to your post as attachments. Thanks Crofter, think I've finally cracked it (or got cracked ) @Onoff save me! I'm in danger of understanding what I am doing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 11 hours ago, v4169sgr said: I'm in danger of understanding what I am doing! The second you can confirm that, we'll make you a staff member . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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