Flooded basement....need reliable pump recommendations and high water alarm

[markc]

Electric arc furnaces have water cooled cables … very strange to be bolting a massive connection (12 x m16 bolts) and then coupling the water pipes up that flow water down the centre and around the conductor to keep it all cool.

[Thorfun]

evening all. hope you're all getting ready to sit down and enjoy Strictly at Blackpool. 

 

thank you for all the advice. I've decided to do this pump solution semi sensibly. I've been looking in to proper dual pump control systems using 4 floats to control them. like this

 

https://www.pumpsukltd.com/puk-v2b-twin-pump-panel.html

 

or this

 

https://www.henrypumps.co.uk/control-pump-plus-single--twin-pump-control-panel-2397-p.asp

 

or this

 

https://www.tritoncontrols.co.uk/alarms-and-controls/twin-pump-controller.html

 

or this

 

https://drainstore.com/pumping-stations-pumps/pumping-station-dual-pump-control-panel-12amp/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-sjqqeW6-wIVw-DtCh1rwgrGEAMYAiAAEgKFp_D_BwE

 

or this

 

https://pumpexpress.co.uk/shop/duplex-up-control-panel/

 

ok. I think you get the idea. they all seem to do much the same thing and have an external 12V alarm trigger which I can easily plug in to Loxone I would presume. Some even have GSM modules that can be built in. if I can also monitor the 2nd pump so that if that ever comes on I know that there's most likely something wrong with the 1st pump so I can get that fixed while the second pump is taking up the work.

 

I think this way I don't need a 3rd pump as it should give plenty of redundancy and notification of potential issues coming.

 

@PeterW I will contact the above companies and ask them to design the system to assist with any potential future insurance claim.

 

anyone have any experience with any of these control panels? otherwise it'll be me just picking one on price and looks! 😉 

 

oh, and I will also have a separate high water alarm sensor outside of this control panel in case of failure of the control panel. and with the house battery backup I think I'm pretty much covered and don't have any single point of failure.

[ProDave]

If you really want to avoid "single point of failure" then a 2 pump system needs both pumps fed from a different MCB and NOT even sharing the same RCD in the consumer unit.  Ideally each served from their own RCBO.

[Thorfun]

11 minutes ago, ProDave said:

If you really want to avoid "single point of failure" then a 2 pump system needs both pumps fed from a different MCB and NOT even sharing the same RCD in the consumer unit.  Ideally each served from their own RCBO.

that's a very good point! I was thinking of putting a 'garage CU' outside in the basement courtyard and could use that for lighting/external sockets as well. I could then run each pump off it's own RCBO. but then the external CU would be a SPOF as there's a single cable from the main CU to it.

 

when you think about it all it could all start to get very complicated indeed!

[Pocster]

8 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

when you think about it all it could all start to get very complicated indeed!

This is the thing . How far do you want to go ? . I have 4 pumps ( each pair on seperate outlets , battery backup , audible alarm , HA alarm on failure  ) . What is the probability of 4 pumps failing and zero electricity- it’s pretty (expletive deleted)ing slim . But you’ve been flooded so your attitude to this risk ( as it has happened ) will be less .  

Edited November 19, 2022 by pocster

[Thorfun]

34 minutes ago, pocster said:

This is the thing . How far do you want to go ? . I have 4 pumps ( each pair on seperate outlets , battery backup , audible alarm , HA alarm on failure  ) . What is the probability of 4 pumps failing and zero electricity- it’s pretty (expletive deleted)ing slim . But you’ve been flooded so your attitude to this risk ( as it has happened ) will be less .  

yeah. that's the question isn't it. how far is enough? I'm pretty happy with my proposed solution but will check with these pump companies. I could have a separate float attached to a separate alarm that's loud enough to pi$$ the neighbours off so that if all else fails they'll come and see what the noise is all about.

 

I will think about the power situation though as I have enough room in our CU for 1 RCBO per pump but I think that's excessive and I'm happy to run both off their own RCBO in the external garage CU. safe in the knowledge that I'll have separate alarms. will probably also keep the Shelley flood sensor going as well somewhere. for the cost of a CR123A battery every 18 months I think it's a good idea.

[ProDave]

Petrol powered pump and suitable hoses on standby as ultimate backup?

[Thorfun]

 

the ultimate backup

[Mr Punter]

42 minutes ago, ProDave said:

suitable hoses on standby

 

I believe our colleague @pocster has these as his preference.

[saveasteading]

12 hours ago, Thorfun said:

the ultimate backup

My favourite chuckle about this is that he is moving along to reduce  the flooding evenly. I am reminded that my young grandson was 'helping' me fill a water feature with a hose, and thoughtfully  and carefully spreading the water around. I decided that was clever enough, and puddles always being level is for another day.

[TonyT]

14 hours ago, ProDave said:

Petrol powered pump and suitable hoses on standby as ultimate backup?

Only if you run the pumps and check operation in a regular basis.

 

Register for flood alerts from your environmental agency, that’s helpful.

 

pumps controller with sms autodiallers that text you when you get high levels/ trips etc.

 

Temp pump, and never use lay flat hoses they are rubbish..

[Roger440]

On 19/11/2022 at 18:33, Thorfun said:

evening all. hope you're all getting ready to sit down and enjoy Strictly at Blackpool. 

 

thank you for all the advice. I've decided to do this pump solution semi sensibly. I've been looking in to proper dual pump control systems using 4 floats to control them. like this

 

https://www.pumpsukltd.com/puk-v2b-twin-pump-panel.html

 

or this

 

https://www.henrypumps.co.uk/control-pump-plus-single--twin-pump-control-panel-2397-p.asp

 

or this

 

https://www.tritoncontrols.co.uk/alarms-and-controls/twin-pump-controller.html

 

or this

 

https://drainstore.com/pumping-stations-pumps/pumping-station-dual-pump-control-panel-12amp/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-sjqqeW6-wIVw-DtCh1rwgrGEAMYAiAAEgKFp_D_BwE

 

or this

 

https://pumpexpress.co.uk/shop/duplex-up-control-panel/

 

ok. I think you get the idea. they all seem to do much the same thing and have an external 12V alarm trigger which I can easily plug in to Loxone I would presume. Some even have GSM modules that can be built in. if I can also monitor the 2nd pump so that if that ever comes on I know that there's most likely something wrong with the 1st pump so I can get that fixed while the second pump is taking up the work.

 

I think this way I don't need a 3rd pump as it should give plenty of redundancy and notification of potential issues coming.

 

@PeterW I will contact the above companies and ask them to design the system to assist with any potential future insurance claim.

 

anyone have any experience with any of these control panels? otherwise it'll be me just picking one on price and looks! 😉 

 

oh, and I will also have a separate high water alarm sensor outside of this control panel in case of failure of the control panel. and with the house battery backup I think I'm pretty much covered and don't have any single point of failure.

 

Why do you want or need all the complication? Especially electronics? Much more failure prone than the pumps.

 

Mine are on 2 seperate supplies, direct from incoming after the meter with their own independant protection seperate from the house.

 

They are zoeller pumps with there own integral floats. There are no other controls. To check i can either, fill sump with water, or just lift up the float.

 

Simples. I dont believe i could make it simpler. Simple = reliable. Electronics = unreliable!!

 

And as back up, in the event of loss of mains power, as stated, a battery pump. Again, independant. Worst that could happen is power goess off in the house (tripped RCD, but mains pumps are still running. That would trigger the battery pump as well. So a "right side" failure.

 

I consider the loss of mains power a significant risk in flood conditions.

 

Can you tell my background is maintenance...............................

 

[Roger440]

10 hours ago, TonyT said:

Only if you run the pumps and check operation in a regular basis.

 

Register for flood alerts from your environmental agency, that’s helpful.

 

pumps controller with sms autodiallers that text you when you get high levels/ trips etc.

 

Temp pump, and never use lay flat hoses they are rubbish..

 

I get my EA flood alerts 12-24 hours after the event. Very helpful!

 

Good advice on the lay flat hoses. Learnt that the hard way.

[Thorfun]

11 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

Why do you want or need all the complication? Especially electronics? Much more failure prone than the pumps.

 

Mine are on 2 seperate supplies, direct from incoming after the meter with their own independant protection seperate from the house.

 

They are zoeller pumps with there own integral floats. There are no other controls. To check i can either, fill sump with water, or just lift up the float.

 

Simples. I dont believe i could make it simpler. Simple = reliable. Electronics = unreliable!!

 

And as back up, in the event of loss of mains power, as stated, a battery pump. Again, independant. Worst that could happen is power goess off in the house (tripped RCD, but mains pumps are still running. That would trigger the battery pump as well. So a "right side" failure.

 

I consider the loss of mains power a significant risk in flood conditions.

 

Can you tell my background is maintenance...............................

 

because I like the idea of it. 4 floats controlling the pumps and giving an alarm built in. I can also use those floats to trigger the HA system so when the 2nd pump is triggered by the float an alert can be sent letting me know that the 1st pump either can't handle the flow or is broken!

 

and these things have built in audible alarms as another warning alarm.

[Thorfun]

thinking about my flooding issue some more and i believe it's obvious that the water got in to the basement from underneath the sliding doors. there's silicone between the door and the dpc but there's obviously a gap between the concrete base and the dpc that allowed water in from the outside.

 

how could i best seal this gap? concrete? silicone? a.n.other method? the opening is approx just over 2m wide.

 

just thinking that if this did ever happen again then if i can stop the water entering the basement the courtyard will fill up but the basement won't!

[Pocster]

44 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

thinking about my flooding issue some more and i believe it's obvious that the water got in to the basement from underneath the sliding doors. there's silicone between the door and the dpc but there's obviously a gap between the concrete base and the dpc that allowed water in from the outside.

 

how could i best seal this gap? concrete? silicone? a.n.other method? the opening is approx just over 2m wide.

 

just thinking that if this did ever happen again then if i can stop the water entering the basement the courtyard will fill up but the basement won't!

If it’s an awkward ‘gap’ then I would say expanding foam . Is there not a drain / channel outside infront the doors ? - that is what you really need that feeds into your sump .

 

add: photo of your doors / courtyard from outside might help 

Edited November 21, 2022 by pocster

[Thorfun]

13 minutes ago, pocster said:

If it’s an awkward ‘gap’ then I would say expanding foam . Is there not a drain / channel outside infront the doors ? - that is what you really need that feeds into your sump .

 

add: photo of your doors / courtyard from outside might help 

there will eventually be some form of drainage channel. i'm thinking short term for now just in case!

 

i'll get a photo once it's stopped raining

[Pocster]

9 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

there will eventually be some form of drainage channel. i'm thinking short term for now just in case!

 

i'll get a photo once it's stopped raining

Been pissing down here now for about 5 days!

But yes ; this is what I have.

 

My concrete courtyard slab with a channel ( shuttered before concrete pour ) in front my sliding doors. That 'channel' continues the full with of the doors and then turns 90 degrees straight into my sump 'chamber' ( another concrete cast ) which is of course lower ; that is where my 2 rainwater pumps sit.

My courtyard is also ( deliberately I may add ) quite a bit lower than my door threshold. I have plastic stilts and aluminium joists with decking on top . What this does mean ; if both pumps fail for whatever reason I can 'store' a lot of water before it even gets near the doorway. I'd do a photo also ; but like you - I'll get drenched 😎

Edited November 21, 2022 by pocster

[Thorfun]

so, not the best photos but I was getting wet.

 

 

I have a step down to the courtyard as well. you can see in this photo how deep the water was internally! so despite also having a large area to 'store' water in the courtyard it was excessive.

 

I believe the water came in under the DPC.

 

 

at least I can't really think of any other real way it did. although there is a duct from the courtyard to the comms room where I guess water could've come in from as well. I'll also need to seal that up once the power cables have been put through.

 

 

in the photo below you can see the line of silicone between the sliders and the dpc so I think this should be ok. I'm sure it's under the DPC that let the water in. although, with the quantities we're talking about that was in the basement it must've been coming in for quite a while. I started a new job last Monday so hadn't been in to the house since the previous Sunday and with all the rain we had I think it was a slow flooding event over the course of a number of days. 

 

it's so sad when I think that if I'd only popped out I might've noticed that the I couldn't hear the water going in to the sump which would've triggered some alarm bells. but, it's happened now. just got to get on with it all.

[Pocster]

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

so, not the best photos but I was getting wet.

 

 

I have a step down to the courtyard as well. you can see in this photo how deep the water was internally! so despite also having a large area to 'store' water in the courtyard it was excessive.

 

I believe the water came in under the DPC.

 

 

at least I can't really think of any other real way it did. although there is a duct from the courtyard to the comms room where I guess water could've come in from as well. I'll also need to seal that up once the power cables have been put through.

 

 

in the photo below you can see the line of silicone between the sliders and the dpc so I think this should be ok. I'm sure it's under the DPC that let the water in. although, with the quantities we're talking about that was in the basement it must've been coming in for quite a while. I started a new job last Monday so hadn't been in to the house since the previous Sunday and with all the rain we had I think it was a slow flooding event over the course of a number of days. 

 

it's so sad when I think that if I'd only popped out I might've noticed that the I couldn't hear the water going in to the sump which would've triggered some alarm bells. but, it's happened now. just got to get on with it all.

Crumbs you were unlucky . Yes a decent channel and also a decent water ‘storage ‘ facility ! . Still think expanding foam is best under there to seal it properly. That doesn’t mean of course water couldn’t get under the dpc if it flooded again though .

Get those 2/3 pumps in and some method of high water / pump failure alarm in pronto !

[ProDave]

Trying to seal under the door is a futile exercise.  Just like people sand bagging the front door.  No house it totally water tight as in swimming pool water tight.  All you will do is slow down, not stop, the rate of water entering the house.

[Thorfun]

27 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Trying to seal under the door is a futile exercise.  Just like people sand bagging the front door.  No house it totally water tight as in swimming pool water tight.  All you will do is slow down, not stop, the rate of water entering the house.

this is a shame as that's waterproof concrete so it's just that small slit beneath the DPC that allowed the water in (i think!). if i didn't have that door then the basement would be swimming pool water tight. i'm sure this won't happen again but i was hoping that maybe i might find a way to reduce the ingress substantially.

 

i might try a bit of expanding foam. i might put a couple of tubes of CT1 under there as well! surely it can't hurt?

[Thorfun]

34 minutes ago, pocster said:

Get those 2/3 pumps in and some method of high water / pump failure alarm in pronto !

working on it!

[Pocster]

8 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

might try a bit of expanding foam. i might put a couple of tubes of CT1 under there as well! surely it can't hurt?

Unless you can see right under there it will be tricky to fill with ct1 . Expanding foam is best . As said ; won’t stop water entering ( in a flood situation ) but will stall / slow it down .

👍

[Pocster]

10 minutes ago, pocster said:

Unless you can see right under there it will be tricky to fill with ct1 . Expanding foam is best . As said ; won’t stop water entering ( in a flood situation ) but will stall / slow it down .

👍

Perhaps when it’s dark stick a torch outside so you can see the light coming under the dpc . Foam along until no light visible . You’ve then done the best as possible .