Flooded basement....need reliable pump recommendations and high water alarm

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, pocster said:

You just get a zoellar !

There,

you said it......

[Pocster]

1 minute ago, Nickfromwales said:

There,

you said it......

I know. He won't listen!. Like I sometimes don't listen to you...

[Nickfromwales]

You can lead a horse to water, eh?  

[Thorfun]

ok @pocster and @Nickfromwales if I'm going to get a Zoeller or two can you please tell me how to calculate the total dynamic head when taking into consideration horizontal runs as well as vertical? because, the pumps are going to be approx 4.3m (will measure accurately in daylight) below ground level. plus it will need to go horizontal approx 3m once up out of the sump and then approx 15m horizontal to outlet to the ditch. so, from pump to ditch it is (approx) 1.4m vertical -> 3m horizontal -> 2.9m vertical -> 15m horizontal.

 

my options from Zoeller (https://www.sumpsandpumpsdirect.co.uk/acatalog/Cellar-Sump-Pumps.html) are 5m, 5.2m, 5.5m or 10m head pumps and looking at how the rate of water discharge falls off as you get to the limit of the pump it's looking like I would need the 10m head pump.

 

[Nickfromwales]

Just now, Thorfun said:

ok @pocster and @Nickfromwales if I'm going to get a Zoeller or two can you please tell me how to calculate the total dynamic head when taking into consideration horizontal runs as well as vertical? because, the pumps are going to be approx 4.3m (will measure accurately in daylight) below ground level. plus it will need to go horizontal approx 3m once up out of the sump and then approx 15m horizontal to outlet to the ditch. so, from pump to ditch it is (approx) 1.4m vertical -> 3m horizontal -> 2.9m vertical -> 15m horizontal.

 

my options from Zoeller (https://www.sumpsandpumpsdirect.co.uk/acatalog/Cellar-Sump-Pumps.html) are 5m, 5.2m, 5.5m or 10m head pumps and looking at how the rate of water discharge falls off as you get to the limit of the pump it's looking like I would need the 10m head pump.

 

You don't buy a dog and bark yourself! Speak to Zoeller tech support and throw this on their table? 

@pocster, did you use this facility / did they offer suport?

[Thorfun]

2 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

You don't buy a dog and bark yourself!

sometimes I do. keeps me sane.

 

2 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Speak to Zoeller tech support and throw this on their table? 

very good point.

[Thorfun]

4 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

You don't buy a dog and bark yourself! Speak to Zoeller tech support and throw this on their table? 

@pocster, did you use this facility / did they offer suport?

according to the Zoeller website sumpsandpumps are the UK branch of Zoeller. 

 

https://www.zoellerpumps.com/press-room/contact-us/international/united-kingdom/

 

I'll give them a call tomorrow.

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, Thorfun said:

according to the Zoeller website sumpsandpumps are the UK branch of Zoeller. 

 

https://www.zoellerpumps.com/press-room/contact-us/international/united-kingdom/

 

I'll give them a call tomorrow.

The horse has arrived at water, drinking to commence imminently.....

[Thorfun]

10 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

The horse has arrived at water, drinking to commence imminently.....

 

I'm just gutted I didn't do my research earlier in the whole process as if I'd known that a 50mm pipe would be required I'd have asked the groundworkers to run a 63mm MDPE pipe instead of the 32mm MDPE pipe. would've cost an extra couple of hundred pounds in material at the time and saved a LOT of faffing around now.

 

such is life and maybe someone else in the future can learn from my mistakes by reading this thread!

[Nickfromwales]

5 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

 

I'm just gutted I didn't do my research earlier in the whole process as if I'd known that a 50mm pipe would be required I'd have asked the groundworkers to run a 63mm MDPE pipe instead of the 32mm MDPE pipe. would've cost an extra couple of hundred pounds in material at the time and saved a LOT of faffing around now.

 

such is life and maybe someone else in the future can learn from my mistakes by reading this thread!

That's the best part about the kind of members that Buildhub attracts, giving in equal amounts of what's taken away. .

 

There's always someone who's worse off too! Not the end of the world, fortunately.

[Mr Punter]

19 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

I'd have asked the groundworkers to run a 63mm MDPE pipe instead of the 32mm MDPE pipe. would've cost an extra couple of hundred pounds in material at the time

 

63mm is a lot more difficult to run, especially in cold weather.

[Pocster]

42 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

You don't buy a dog and bark yourself! Speak to Zoeller tech support and throw this on their table? 

@pocster, did you use this facility / did they offer suport?

Support ? You know I didn’t (expletive deleted)ing call them . I just grow a big pair and bite the bullet 💪.

[Thorfun]

Just now, Mr Punter said:

 

63mm is a lot more difficult to run, especially in cold weather.

fair enough but we built the basement in the summer so I'm sure it could've been done. still, this makes me feel better about only using 32mm as maybe using the 63mm would've been a real pain. even more so that me simply running 50mm PVCu pipe.

[Thorfun]

1 minute ago, pocster said:

I just grow a big pair and bite the bullet 💪.

is that in the same way you did when ordering walk on glazing? 

[saveasteading]

52 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

the water has to go somewhere.

But not into your courtyard.

As above, I suggest  that the design premise is wrong.

The house has disturbed the natural flow of groundwater, but that can be resolved by diverting it around the house, rather than fountaining up in your courtyard.

Just keep it out of the structure, and it will flow round it and back onto its original route. The flow will slow down too, because the natural water table will return.

 

As my coloured lines attached.: the tanking should be a complete enclosure.  (Not with a hole in it) Red Line. The same principle as not putting a hole in the bottom of a swimming pool.

It can just be very local around the sump, the purpose of which would only be to catch rain falling in the courtyard, plus any from downpipes (which could and should be taken elsewhere).

 

The water from the neighbouring acres simply stays where it is and dissipates where it always used to.

You can possibly still do this, although it depends whether the tanking was just to the house or the whole structure...which it looks to be.

It would be a permanent solution.

 

The purple line of your drain can remain, simply moving water around so it can find a new course along the rock.

If you must pump the groundwater then this can be another sump, outside the red line.

 

That's my last shout on this, unless you want to consider this any further. PM me if necessary  as I may turn this topic off.

 

If your revised drainage doesn't work, it will be because of the sheer quantity of water, and then you can try my proposal.

But time is passing, and liability is gradually passing entirely to you, although you appear to be taking full blame anyway, for reasons I don't understand.

I can see that the designers might want to claim that you didn't understand the concept, or built it wrongly, and that they weren't Project Managers. Perhaps a risk of breaking the project down too much. But there is a fundamental duty from them, and when there are unusual circumstances and is high risk, the duty extends to ensuring that it is understood and carried out.

 

Good luck with it anyway. Pump away.

 

 

 

[Pocster]

25 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

is that in the same way you did when ordering walk on glazing? 

Yes 

[Thorfun]

8 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

But not into your courtyard.

As above, I suggest  that the design premise is wrong.

The house has disturbed the natural flow of groundwater, but that can be resolved by diverting it around the house, rather than fountaining up in your courtyard.

Just keep it out of the structure, and it will flow round it and back onto its original route. The flow will slow down too, because the natural water table will return.

 

As my coloured lines attached.: the tanking should be a complete enclosure.  (Not with a hole in it) Red Line. The same principle as not putting a hole in the bottom of a swimming pool.

It can just be very local around the sump, the purpose of which would only be to catch rain falling in the courtyard, plus any from downpipes (which could and should be taken elsewhere).

 

The water from the neighbouring acres simply stays where it is and dissipates where it always used to.

You can possibly still do this, although it depends whether the tanking was just to the house or the whole structure...which it looks to be.

It would be a permanent solution.

 

The purple line of your drain can remain, simply moving water around so it can find a new course along the rock.

If you must pump the groundwater then this can be another sump, outside the red line.

 

That's my last shout on this, unless you want to consider this any further. PM me if necessary  as I may turn this topic off.

 

If your revised drainage doesn't work, it will be because of the sheer quantity of water, and then you can try my proposal.

But time is passing, and liability is gradually passing entirely to you, although you appear to be taking full blame anyway, for reasons I don't understand.

I can see that the designers might want to claim that you didn't understand the concept, or built it wrongly, and that they weren't Project Managers. Perhaps a risk of breaking the project down too much. But there is a fundamental duty from them, and when there are unusual circumstances and is high risk, the duty extends to ensuring that it is understood and carried out.

 

Good luck with it anyway. Pump away.

 

 

 

thanks, and I understand what you're saying. leaving the water sitting around the basement still worries me and worries me what the effect of hydrostatic pressure might be but I now get what you're talking about. I will go back through the original drawings and communications with each of the designers as I do wonder if the sump in the courtyard was only supposed to be for courtyard water but I made the decision to put the land drain in to it as I thought that is what it was for.

 

I will definitely look in to this some more and your solution is possible and something I could definitely look in to at a later date but, tbh, I just want to get the house finished and move in! money is running out and time is moving very quickly and I feel I have other priorities, especially if I can fix this with pumps in the meantime.

 

I very much appreciate you input on this.

[saveasteading]

2 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

I made the decision to put the land drain in to it as I thought that is what it was for.

Ok, that crossed my mind. 

 

Re hydrostatic loads.   There are a lot of basements in the country. Many are damp, but few have water gushing up. Most don't have reinforced concrete, but you do. . So intuitively I think you are over-worrying.

The SE may be happy to help on this, esp as you won't be claiming against them.

 

What method is used for the tanking?

Does it enclose the courtyard?

I might be a cheaper job than the pumping station you are looking at.

 

[Thorfun]

19 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Ok, that crossed my mind. 

 

Re hydrostatic loads.   There are a lot of basements in the country. Many are damp, but few have water gushing up. Most don't have reinforced concrete, but you do. . So intuitively I think you are over-worrying.

The SE may be happy to help on this, esp as you won't be claiming against them.

 

What method is used for the tanking?

Does it enclose the courtyard?

I might be a cheaper job than the pumping station you are looking at.

 

the basement area of the house has 2 forms of waterproofing. waterproof concrete and an external membrane. the external membrane does not enclose the courtyard but the courtyard is built with waterproof concrete. I have not seen any water coming in through the courtyard walls.

 

maybe I am over-worrying and I could easily speak to the SE about my hydrostatic pressure concerns. I do remember talking about the land drain location with them but can't remember the details so will need to go through my communication history.

 

I could very easily get to your solution by bunging up the 110mm pipes that come in to the sump from the land drain as the sump is also made from waterproof concrete. then all the water will stay outside of the basement and courtyard.

 

you've definitely given me something to think about here. for now my pump solution is working and I will take a step back from any plans I had for a 50mm pipe until I've investigated what you're talking about.

[Nickfromwales]

Seems a 'light on' moment has been arrived at here  

@Thorfun,

Did your contractor install clean grade 3 or clean hardcore all around the basement? eg free-flowing / draining material? Just wondering how easy it is for the water to get from higher to lower ground as it surrounds / travels 'through' the area consumed by the basement.

 

5 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Ok, that crossed my mind. 

I never even though to ask about this tbh! Got way too bogged down looking towards a solution to pump this away reliably.

[saveasteading]

48 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

looking towards a solution to pump

Which was the question.

The drawings were what sent me back to the question. I hadn't read the previous 5 pages.

Helps that I've done a few basements and reservoirs.

[Nickfromwales]

Just now, saveasteading said:

Which was the question.

The drawings were what sent me back to the question. I hadn't read the previous 5 pages.

Helps that I've done a few basements and reservoirs.

"A few heads better than one"  

[saveasteading]

Just now, Nickfromwales said:

"A few heads better than one"

Absolutely. It is your and others' interest that made me look at the topic properly, which I had skimmed, being about pump sizes.

The original photo showed the extent of the problem. The tech drawings explained better than any words.

 

The variety of expertise on her helps a lot too. Different slants on a subject.

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

Seems a 'light on' moment has been arrived at here  

@Thorfun,

Did your contractor install clean grade 3 or clean hardcore all around the basement? eg free-flowing / draining material? Just wondering how easy it is for the water to get from higher to lower ground as it surrounds / travels 'through' the area consumed by the basement.

 

I never even though to ask about this tbh! Got way too bogged down looking towards a solution to pump this away reliably.

yep, permeable clean hardcore all around the basement to allow for free flowing of water. it was basically done to the SE drawings

 

 

I'm glad I asked for the sump to be made deeper (it's 1500mm now) as the 600mm deep sump would be constantly overflowing if I hadn't and I'd be in real trouble!

 

31 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Absolutely. It is your and others' interest that made me look at the topic properly, which I had skimmed, being about pump sizes.

The original photo showed the extent of the problem. The tech drawings explained better than any words.

 

The variety of expertise on her helps a lot too. Different slants on a subject.

I've been through my old emails and the Civil engineers did originally design the sump to only take the ACO water from the courtyard. Also, originally the SE specified the land drain to be near the ground level but I asked if it would be better at the basement slab level and they said yes if the water was going to be diverted to the sump and pumped out but they originally specified at ground level so as to utilise gravity.

 

so, tbh, this was all done at my request and I am to blame. but, I am planning on speaking to the SE to ask what ramifications could occur if I block up the 2 x 110mm pipes feeding in to the sump and just let the water gather around the basement. I will also ask if there's a potential solution out of this mess as I would love to not have to worry about the quantity of water entering in to the sump! if I can close it off as you've suggested then I will be one very happy chappy.

 

I'll update on the outcome of those conversations.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Thorfun

[Thorfun]

while I await a response from the SE I thought it'd be interesting to post a photo of our lovely warm (and dry!) floor in the basement taken with my new FLIR ONE Gen 3. 🙂