Bath Surround / Boxing In, and concealed pipework

[Onoff]

Am I going about this somewhere near right? Marking tile spacing with 3mm grout line spacing (red).

 

With 400x250 tiles laid horizontal I've ROUGHLY marked where they'll go:

 

One end of the bath wall:

 

 

The other end:

 

 

Full tile widths with "decent" sized bits at the end.

 

At an internal corner should the meeting tiles ideally be the same width?

 

Should I really time the floor first? To do so I'd need to sort the wet room corner and wall drain.

 

Can't see here how I would tile first then put the trim on because of the back to back flags / double quadrant detail

 

 

Someone point me at a decent enough tile adhesive please.

 

Cheers

[Nickfromwales]

With the double quadrant at the head of the shelf, is that all fixed yet? If not, tile and make sure there's no adhesive on the back of the tile. Then just bond it on afterwards?

Tile cuts in the corners don't need to match unless it's just a bit of luck. I'd go for the better cuts / sizes according to the wall. 

The floor should be tiled first, but in my early days I used to tile the room off a batten, leaving the bottom course of tiles off, then I'd tile the floor, and then I'd remove the batten and carefully cut / scribe each bottom tile in to finish.

If it were me, I'd do the drain and the wetroom area first, then the rest of the floor. Get that out of the way and you'll be able to focus 100% on the walls without the floor winding you up. Plus, not forgetting of course, the wall drain video shows that it needs to be connected, scrim'd, tanked and bedded in, floor and wall, prior to tiling. . 

 

[Onoff]

An idea:

 

SWMBO wants the whole wall above where the bath pocket is, painted:

 

 

So in the above photo the face of the ply around the pocket will be tiled. There's then a strip of mrpb that will be a continuous narrow shelf. This she wants mosaic tiled and also a little matching tiled upstand - above that she wants painted. This is roughly in line with a tile line shown above on the wall at the head of the bath. Thinking to continue this mosaic tiled upstand "band" around all the walls. That way I could lose the narrow rip up by the ceiling?

Edited August 18, 2017 by Onoff

[Nickfromwales]

That would work, and I've done a few where the border separates tiled lower / painted upper sections. The cuts look like they're not going to get much better, so border-decision time . T'would be good to lose that top rip though . 

Re adhesive, go to the smaller tile outlets / big BM and compare prices. Standard set regular for the walls, standard or rapid set FLEXIBLE for the floor. I'm averaging £12-15 per 20kg but B&Q do the Mapei stuff for stupid cheap now and then so check them out too. My mate paid £7 a bag the other day but I didn't see if they were 20kg or not. 

£12.17 for 20kg of Mapei rapid set. Trade point need you to log in for prices  can't remember my password lol. Look ( in trade point ) for the Mapei in the brown bags / trade one  They deffo do standard set as my mate bought it by mistake. 

 

[Barney12]

4 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

That would work, and I've done a few where the border separates tiled lower / painted upper sections. The cuts look like they're not going to get much better, so border-decision time . T'would be good to lose that top rip though . 

Re adhesive, go to the smaller tile outlets / big BM and compare prices. Standard set regular for the walls, standard or rapid set FLEXIBLE for the floor. I'm averaging £12-15 per 20kg but B&Q do the Mapei stuff for stupid cheap now and then so check them out too. My mate paid £7 a bag the other day but I didn't see if they were 20kg or not. 

£12.17 for 20kg of Mapei rapid set. Trade point need you to log in for prices  can't remember my password lol. Look ( in trade point ) for the Mapei in the brown bags / trade one  They deffo do standard set as my mate bought it by mistake. 

 

 

£9.32 inc vat on Tradepoint website. 

[Nickfromwales]

3 minutes ago, Barney12 said:

 

£9.32 inc vat on Tradepoint website. 

Cheers. 

[Onoff]

Thanks all. Its the "me" and "rapid" anything, adhesive or otherwise I cant get my head around! Do they quote faffing time on the bags? 

[bassanclan]

Rapid set is not going to be any good for you, you want "extended open time" so you have plenty of faffing time!

Mapei keraflex

[Nickfromwales]

49 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Thanks all. Its the "me" and "rapid" anything, adhesive or otherwise I cant get my head around! Do they quote faffing time on the bags? 

They're called standard set or extended set. 

Rapid is 30 mins or less pot time, can be more like 10-15 mins if it's a warm day. 

Extended will give you around 45 mins to 1 hour, possibly more, again dependant on ambient temp. 

Ice cold water is your friend. Don't use the slug of ambient temp water sitting in the pipe as even that'll shave a bit off the pot time. Same with the adhesive, store it cold and dry. 

 

[Onoff]

Ordered that Aquaseal wet room kit at 21.00hrs on Weds night and it arrived today just after 1pm. Was expecting it Monday 21st.

 

The best bit.....manufactured April 2017.....24 MONTH SHELF LIFE!!!

[Construction Channel]

18 minutes ago, Onoff said:

24 MONTH SHELF LIFE!!!

 

you had better get a wiggle on then hadn't you  

[Onoff]

Accumulative error.....

 

If I ping a laser line around the room pre tiling then that seems pretty "thick", I just measured mine at 2mm thick.

 

What's the norm here then, mark a horizontal line dead centre of the laser line i.e. 1mm in from each side of the projected line and tile off of that, keep the laser on and tile to that or nail a thin batten all round so the first full tile from the floor sits on it?

 

Can't help thinking a sharp pencil line will be better than the Sharpie as said before?

 

Ta.

[Nickfromwales]

I tile to a 2mm grout line with the laser line and just have the laser lighting up the middle of the spacer. With ceramic I doubt that you'll be able to use plain spacers for every course from floor to ceiling without gaining / losing a bit. They're just not made to that good a tolerance so you'll end up using wedge spacers here and there anyhoo. Set the shortest piece of batten out and rest a tile on it, then put two spacers on it and another tile. Keep doing that until you reach the datum line and see how much you've lost / gained ( two man job if it's a few courses ) and adjust the batten height accordingly.

You want to set it out so the first course of tiles sit on spacers THEN the batten which will allow you some wiggle room for when you get two ( wet ) courses high. You run a straight edge ( 1200mm level / other ), across every 3 tiles wide as your going, and if there are any peaks / troughs you just change the base spacer out to a wedge, pushing it in / out to suit, ( to push them in you'll have to chop the narrow end off a bit as it'll hit the PB ). Set the laser to the top of the second course, after you've stuck ( wet ) the first two tiles ( stacked one one the other ) and that'll then become your actual working datum. Go around the room those two courses high and allow them to set, first making double sure the gaps and top edge are perfect. Then you can lose the laser until you've gone another 2 courses high, at which point you reinstate the laser and go around the last row of spacers again changing out for wedges if / wherever necessary. Don't tile more than 3 courses high without checking / rectifying with the laser and wedges, but don't do it every course as that's just pointless.

The laser is a guide but the straight edge is your friend, instantly ( and quickly ) pointing out any undulations. 

 

Note : "wet" means tile stuck on but the adhesive not yet set, so the tile can be adjusted. 

[Onoff]

I won't need tiles at this rate, my walls will be covered with @Nickfromwales gems of wisdom on A4!

[Nickfromwales]

Get the tiles on

[Onoff]

So, to continue I need to finish the floor which means laying the wet room corner to falls. At the moment, as above I've left a bfo piece out of the slab NOMINALLY the right size!

 

Roughly this is how the floor falls to the wall drain:

 

 

So it needs to fall from "0" to "X". The width at "X" (of the bit with the little inverted triangles on) is 410mm.

 

A couple of PDFs, for the life of me I couldn't print decent resolution JPEGs from AutoCAD (sorry)!

 

Both layouts based on 16 330x330mm tiles NOT mosaics laid in a pseudo Unioin Jack configuration. The magenta (purple) lines are my nominal fall lines to the wall drain.

 

Clear from both I think that the "hole" left in the slab is over size so all 16 tiles have to move left so the tiles on the "flush plate" wall come down over them. Also that all 16 tiles need to move "north" up the page to again go under the wall tiles where the wall drain is. I'll need too to bring in the level edge due to the reduced size.

 

wet_001.pdf

 

I think this looks better as it avoids tiny, weeny slivers of ceramic (cheap seats here) tile. The 410mm dimension has to grow a bit.

 

wet_002.pdf

 

Obviously the cut edges, pointy ends of the tiles are a worry, Do you "file" these down and just be careful grouting?

 

I MAY be able to get these water jet cut for a drink. Is it a case of mark the line with a Sharpie and they can cut to it? I usually send water/laser cutters a DXF file! Will ceramic tiles take to being water jet cut?

 

Mix. I was debating maybe a 3:2:1 pea shingle / sharp sand / cement mix for this maybe made up with 5:1 PVA or SBR, thoughts anyone?

 

I'm likely going to make up two identical long thin, holed (for the mix to get through) triangles maybe of st/st or Asbestolux or even ply that will sit on the fall lines and that I'll "screed" to though I'll likely do a wet 'ish mix.

 

Any thoughts or anything I've missed appreciated!

 

Cheers

 

EDIT: Enlarged view of the preferred one:

 

wet_004.pdf

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Onoff

[Onoff]

Geberit wall drain time...out of character I know but pic heavy!  

 

Bear in mind I didn't plan for this type of drain!

 

So I figured out via the CAD where it's going laterally (I hope) and took the multi-tool to the studwork:

 

 

I've the DPM that comes up from under the floor EPS layer that lapped up over the front of the "sole plate" this was attached with spray adhesive. Because this wall was damp at one time I also ran a metre of DPM up the wall behind the studs:

 

 

Behind the floor DPM is EPS stuck to the inner leaf of the cavity wall (the green/yellow painted bit):

 

 

So took a slitting disc to the A142 mesh:

 

 

And then did some hacking of the PIR on the floor:

 

 

Along the edge here I made good and squared off the footings. 25mm EPS sits on the main floor area and lips up over the made good footing 

 

 

Under the 50mm PIR is 30mm PIR + the 25mm EPS in the photo above.- this is over the edge of the footings made good. So under the 30mm PIR is the (blue) DPM then 25mm EPS

 

 

And it drops in:

 

 

 

Got to think about this now as with a 2% fall I'd only have about 60mm at the slab edge (best not forget the fibres :). Maybe a 1% slope and I'd gain +10mm.

 

 

I also need to push it back into the tapered expanding foam layer behind the studs:

 

 

Thinking I need too to trim those A142 ends that are a bit near to the UFH pipes.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Onoff

[Pete]

Beer in mind may be

[Onoff]

Just now, Pete said:

Beer in mind may be

 

Beer somewhere in pic quite often!

[Onoff]

As I'm still waiting for my lawnmower belt...

 

If anyone doubts the efficiency of Soudal low expansion foam to stick EPS to EPS or EPS to liquid DPM trust me it sticks. Needed to push the Geberit element back another nom. 20mm so I've had to hack into the EPS upstand on the inner leaf of the cavity wall. Easier just to remove it all and redo:

 

 

This is the floor DPM slit and laid over the UFH pipes, (hoover as you go):

 

 

Means the DPM will have to sit staggered something like this. Not sure whether to leave it or faff making good with folds of extra DPM and DPM tape? Reckon I'll only get nom 25mm of EPS between the back of the Geberit element and inner leaf of the cavity wall:

 

 

Pointing at the DPC:

 

 

Right then, off out for a beer and a curry!

 

(Where's the BEER icon?)

[Onoff]

As already posted elsewhere more removing of perimeter insulation etc to get the wall drain in. Then a coat of Wickes liquid DPM. You're supposed to give it two but there already was two coats there but I'd scraped the low exp. foam off and damaged it a bit:

 

 

 

 

Scored some lengths of 100x1x1500 powder coated (I think) steel. This is what I'll make my shower tray former out of. Just a case of transferring dimensions from CAD to the steel and using a bevel gauge here and there:

 

 

[Onoff]

@Nickfromwales, sorry to hassle you on a Saturday. What do you reckon on concrete fall %age wise over about 1.3m for this wet room corner? The Geberit instructions say 1 to 2%. Equates to say 1/2" to 1" max. Thinking the lower as it might be less noticeable when you walk around the corner of the bath.

 

 

Reckon I'm going to have only 20mm of EPS behind the wall drain. Should help stop the trap drying out at least!

 

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

A 1500mm Impey has less than 20mm iirc. Any fall will suffice TBH as long as the drain is capable of 150% of the shower head max flow rate. You'll have that with ease as it's a linear slot.  

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

A 1500mm Impey has less than 20mm iirc. Any fall will suffice TBH as long as the drain is capable of 150% of the shower head max flow rate. You'll have that with ease as it's a linear slot.  

 

Thank you as always. Less fall is better as it'll also give me a bit thicker slab.

 

The Geberit waste then is 50mm OD. I remember the grief @ProDave had with fitting compatibility a while back, ordering one size and it turns out to be another!

 

So...the bath solvent waste pipe is 56mm OD /51.5 - 52mm ID - fits into the elbow in the picture. It'd be good if the pipes on the wall outside were the same diameter. I was thinking then to slip a sliver of the correct, bigger pipe into the elbow then slip it onto the Geberit 50mm waste. Would be 0.75 to 1mm bigger on the radius. Then use that gap filling solvent cement you said to get a while back:

 

 

 

It's actually tighter than you would think:

 

 

I've even saved some sawing waste (thanks @JSHarris) from cutting the pipe to help bulk out and gaps and hopefully melt into the mix.

 

One little worry is that if I do this the Geberit pipe will form a little lip that's usually flush with the shoulder of the elbow, thinking hair trap. Not a problem for me and the lad with No.2 clippers all over but thinking of Cousin It and her smaller clone here!

 

 

If I do go for it, tight 90 or sweeping?

 

 

Silly idea overall?

 

Sort of getting there anyway, just need to decide on this adapter and I'll get drilling, not exactly @Construction Channel standards of videoing:

 

 

Edited August 26, 2017 by Onoff

[Onoff]

Bugger! This Geberit pipe material appears not to be solvent weld compatible!

 

On the left a sliver of pipe, nicely melted into the solvent, on the right a sliver of the Geberit pipe, solvent hasn't touched it.

 

 

I really didn't want a hidden compression fitting in the wall / floor aside from it'll be bigger