Heat pump latest government offers

[Ferdinand]

8 minutes ago, IanR said:

You are probably right. What's your annual space heating energy demand, off your SAP?

I did say "most" cases. But the lower the demand, the less you get with RHI.

 

My annual space heating demand (from my gas bill minus a bit for hot water and cooking) is about 12500 kWh / 201 sqm = approx 62 kWh/sqm/yr.

 

The EPC is old and some things have changed. I plan some room rearrangement and a small extension soon, when it will be worth getting another one. But I be doing a heat model, so at that point I may run it through the EPC software.

 

The EPC register does not seem to contain the actual estimated heating information.

 

F

[IanR]

26 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

 

My annual space heating demand (from my gas bill minus a bit for hot water and cooking) is about 12500 kWh / 201 sqm = approx 62 kWh/sqm/yr.

 

You may be surprised, roughly £8,400 from RHI over 7 years.

 

From https://renewable-heat-calculator.service.gov.uk/StartCalculation.aspx

 

Just make sure you change the default SPF (SCOP). I've set it to 4.2, which is easily achievable. A higher grant is available if you choose an ASHP with a higher SCOP. 

 

[joth]

3 hours ago, PeterW said:

This tech has been around for decades ..! It’s used in every major building programme, every office and hotel etc. 

 

M&E - and specifically air conditioning and refrigeration - is something that is skilled and technical role that is continually evolving. There are big organisations in this space who do offer long term apprenticeship  training and also are reputable. 
 

The issue is that it is being used in small scale deployments and as a replacement for traditional boilers. The problem has become that the ASHP providers are punting their products as boiler replacements and not actually managing the expectations that these are very different beasts

Yes I basically agree!

 

But training up more apprentices in the commercial M&E space is not going to be anywhere near fast enough way to build up the lack of sufficiently skilled system designers operating in the domestic space. 

Ultimately domestic installations are (today) so much lower margin and so won't attract the same scale of investment in skills as commercial.

 

The domestic market has no economy of scale. A multistory office block, one engineer can specify the system and then 20 technicians carry out the install. Domestic market every house is unique, making the ratio much less favourable, you need one designer per technician.

A council estate retrofit is probably about as good as it gets for traditional build housing stock.

 

While the underlying tech is a century old, I'd say domestic heat pumps are still rapidly evolving, considering just while I was shopping for one 3 new refrigeratants came more available on the market, each with different flow temperature characteristics, and each with different undocumented control system idiosyncrasies especially regarding enabling cooling mode, I was generally far more aware of the current possibilities and performance within a given brand than my M&E consultant was. 

[Ferdinand]

1 hour ago, joth said:

Yes I basically agree!

 

But training up more apprentices in the commercial M&E space is not going to be anywhere near fast enough way to build up the lack of sufficiently skilled system designers operating in the domestic space. 

Ultimately domestic installations are (today) so much lower margin and so won't attract the same scale of investment in skills as commercial.

 

The domestic market has no economy of scale. A multistory office block, one engineer can specify the system and then 20 technicians carry out the install. Domestic market every house is unique, making the ratio much less favourable, you need one designer per technician.

A council estate retrofit is probably about as good as it gets for traditional build housing stock.

 

While the underlying tech is a century old, I'd say domestic heat pumps are still rapidly evolving, considering just while I was shopping for one 3 new refrigeratants came more available on the market, each with different flow temperature characteristics, and each with different undocumented control system idiosyncrasies especially regarding enabling cooling mode, I was generally far more aware of the current possibilities and performance within a given brand than my M&E consultant was. 

 

How does the market roll in France, where they have 5-10x our current sales?

 

Us: 30k last year, 60k this year. France 250-300k in 2018.

 

New build estates are also presumably good business.

[Temp]

In France I've seen ASHP used to heat swimming pools.

[ProDave]

3 minutes ago, Temp said:

In France I've seen ASHP used to heat swimming pools.

They do that well because you are only heating the pool to a low temperature, similar to UFH water temperature, and you are heating a big load so no need to modulate down to a low power so DOL starter versions work well and are cheap.  There are specific models marketed for this application.

[Ferdinand]

On 19/10/2021 at 07:31, TonyT said:

The £5k will just pay for the additional paperwork of the  scheme and the inflated price of the installers.

 

look at the PV price while Fit was on the go, look now, same install probably £5k cheaper.

 

 

I'm not *absolutely* sure that it will work like that, as the average RHI was more than 5k (I think).

 

So it might go down (he said optimistically), but OTOH the 5k is simpler to understand, so less careful installers might go for it.

 

[SteamyTea]

11 hours ago, Temp said:

In France I've seen ASHP used to heat swimming pools.

We used to sell HP heaters for swimming pools in the 1980s.

Nothing new.  They worked well.

 

The Jubilee Pool in Penzance got a load of cash ~£1.8m (£540m was my money) to have a geothermal heating system fitted.  While drilling they hit problems.  So abandoned drilling to 450m (I think) and started pumping up some warmed water ~30°C and put it though a Water to Water Heat Pump.  This heats a small area of the pool, a few square metres, not the whole pool.

What narks me is that this is a seawater pool, so part of the warm Atlantic Ocean is constantly pumped in and out of the main pool.

I suggested that using the Atlantic as the heat source would be a lot cheaper, especially as there is a company in Cornwall that already makes sea W2WHPs.  My estimate was £300k to do this.  But forgot the council was involved, and hippies.

[Temp]

OT but look what other countries are doing..

 

"Plan Calls for Vietnam’s Coal Power Production to Double by 2030"
https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/plan-calls-for-vietnam-s-coal-power-production-to-double-by-2030/6272633.html

[SteamyTea]

49 minutes ago, Temp said:

OT but look what other countries are doing..

 

"Plan Calls for Vietnam’s Coal Power Production to Double by 2030"
https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/plan-calls-for-vietnam-s-coal-power-production-to-double-by-2030/6272633.html

I have some 'plans' for the next 9 years, some of them are legal.

 

 

Vietnam consumes 56,641,097 tonnes of coal a year.

UK 41,459,830, So about 16m tonnes a year less.

https://www.worldometers.info/coal/coal-consumption-by-country/

 

They have about 30 million more people than us.

Edited October 21, 2021 by SteamyTea

[Ferdinand]

59 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I have some 'plans' for the next 9 years, some of them are legal.

 

 

Vietnam consumes 56,641,097 tonnes of coal a year.

UK 41,459,830, So about 16m tonnes a year less.

https://www.worldometers.info/coal/coal-consumption-by-country/

 

They have about 30 million more people than us.

 

That UK coal consumption number looks very dodgy.

 

Aha the table says cubic feet not tonnes. I think I can pick up a cubic foot of coal, whilst a tonne would need an elephant.

 

UK consumption for 2020 was about 8 million tonnes, which is about 5% of what it was in 1970, and about a sixth of what they use in Germany.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/223493/uk-coal-consumption/

 

The Vietnam point is correct, though our trend from 1965 to 2019 is -96%, Vietnam is +28%.

 

It sounds like Vietnam needs some serious investment on renewables, and perhaps development help - not having got into really energy intensive gp yet.

 

 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

That UK coal consumption number looks very dodgy.

I got the numbers from the individual country page, not the main page I linked to.  Assumed they would be the same units.

 

Vietnam 56,641,097 Tons

UK 41,459,830 Tons

 

I hate all units that are not SI.

 

The updated numbers are not hugely different.

[Ferdinand]

10 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I got the numbers from the individual country page, not the main page I linked to.  Assumed they would be the same units.

 

Vietnam 56,641,097 Tons

UK 41,459,830 Tons

 

I hate all units that are not SI.

 

The updated numbers are not hugely different.

 

I still don't think this UK 42 million tonnes of coal consumed per year is right.

 

Govt puts total UK demand for coal in 2020 as around 7-8 million tonnes.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1021925/Energy_Trends_September_2021.pdf

 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

11 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

still don't think this UK 42 million tonnes of coal consumed per year is right.

Possibly.  I just picked one source.

it is too easy to pick multiple sources to get conflicting figures.

 

I can't actually see an annual tonneage figure in the report you linked to.  But I am doing other stuff right now.

[Ferdinand]

2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Possibly.  I just picked one source.

it is too easy to pick multiple sources to get conflicting figures.

 

I can't actually see an annual tonneage figure in the report you linked to.  But I am doing other stuff right now.

 

Inferred from Section 2.

 

Chart 2.1.

[epsilonGreedy]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

I have some 'plans' for the next 9 years, some of them are legal.

 

 

A micro nuclear fission reactor in your back garden or have you debugged cold fusion?

[Temp]

9 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

A micro nuclear fission reactor in your back garden or have you debugged cold fusion?

 

Cold Fusion now called Low Energy Nuclear Reactions or LENR still rumbles on. This was latest project I've been reading about..

https://www.cleanplanet.co.jp/en/science/

 

[Onoff]

The key comment here I guess is they've apparently paid heed to better insulating their old place?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/oct/23/its-been-brilliant-air-source-heat-pump-will-recoup-cost-for-owner

 

How do those costs equate to a proper passive type build?

 

As an aside are all the Tory MPs really going to give up their AGAs in their country piles?

[MikeSharp01]

On 21/10/2021 at 22:10, Temp said:

Cold Fusion now called Low Energy Nuclear Reactions or LENR still rumbles on. This was latest project I've been reading about..

https://www.cleanplanet.co.jp/en/science/

eeeeek!

[joth]

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

The key comment here I guess is they've apparently paid heed to better insulating their old place?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/oct/23/its-been-brilliant-air-source-heat-pump-will-recoup-cost-for-owner

 

How do those costs equate to a proper passive type build?

 

As an aside are all the Tory MPs really going to give up their AGAs in their country piles?

That article reads like "we doubled the efficiency of our land rover by replacinging the engine! Oh Btw we also rebuilt the chassis in carbon fibre and redeisgned the body for aerodynamics in a wind tunnel, but never mind that"

 

Successfully insulating a grade 2 listed building sounds the main story really. It needs to mention what the savings in oil heating that made on it's own. The change to ASHP is a side note to that. 

 

[ValleyBoy1958]

On 23/10/2021 at 19:00, joth said:

That article reads like "we doubled the efficiency of our land rover by replacinging the engine! Oh Btw we also rebuilt the chassis in carbon fibre and redeisgned the body for aerodynamics in a wind tunnel, but never mind that"

 

Successfully insulating a grade 2 listed building sounds the main story really. It needs to mention what the savings in oil heating that made on it's own. The change to ASHP is a side note to that. 

 

Spot-on! Typical lazy (or not understanding) newspaper headline. The ASHP system cost them £14K (but with £9K recouped via RHI admittedly) and they were quoted as having "already spent a lot of time and money insulating the house". No details of the insulation were provided.

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, ValleyBoy1958 said:

"already spent a lot of time and money insulating the house"

I spent very little, but I made sure it was effective.

[ValleyBoy1958]

2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I spent very little, but I made sure it was effective.

 

How much is very little? I must have spent at least £1000 on IWI (Celotex 3") and associated stuff like plasterboard, battens and VCL plus additional quilt for the attic spaces. Well worth it though as we slashed our heating oil consumption from 3000L to 1500L p.a.

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, ValleyBoy1958 said:

How much is very little

Was when we could pick up rolls for 3 quid.

Think I spent less than £30.

 

I keep meaning to have a read of my neighbours electric meter to see how much they have used, but think they both have smart meters fitted, so newer than mine.

[George]

On 23/10/2021 at 19:00, joth said:

Successfully insulating a grade 2 listed building sounds the main story really. It needs to mention what the savings in oil heating that made on it's own. The change to ASHP is a side note to that. 

 

All things being equal, if a ASHP can effectively heat a building, it should be cheaper to run than oil. Oil is currently 60p+/litre (5.8p/KWh) and it only really dropped from that level due to the pandemic. 

 

It still only makes sense if doing a full refurb and no access to mains gas, for me ashp is the next best option if the capital cost can have a grant covering the extra over. Although capital cost may start to fall.