Builder wanting to renegotiate terms halfway through...

[Tom]

Evening Ladies and Gents

So, my builder pulled me to one side today and said that they are thinking of quitting the build - either that or they want more money. The current deal is I am paying them an hourly rate (I know, I know, this was the only way...) and then 10% on any materials that go through their trade account. This was with the caveat that I could source my own materials and buy them myself if cheaper. This I have done on a couple of big items (eg floor insulation 5k, rebar mesh 10k). Now they are saying they want to take 10% on all materials, whether through their account or bought by myself AND apply this retrospectively to the insulation and mesh.

I was willing to renegotiate, and said so - but TBH it sticks in the throat a bit that they are now wanting to apply new terms retrospectively. I'm of the view that if the terms they agreed at the start have not worked out, then that's on their head, and they'll know for next time. A renoegotiatin of our agreement going forward is OK with me.

What's your view?

[recoveringbuilder]

You’re having a laugh!! They want to charge you an extra 10% on the things you’re supplying? I fear they’re at it and possibly think you’ll have to go with it due to the shortage of available tradesmen, do you have a contract with them? I think if they come off the job for the reasons given they’d be in breach of contract but I don’t know what you could do about it 

[PeterW]

10% on handling client provided materials is pretty standard. It pays for the moving it, unloading it, reading the manual to install it etc. 

 

 

[nod]

15 minutes ago, Tom said:

Evening Ladies and Gents

So, my builder pulled me to one side today and said that they are thinking of quitting the build - either that or they want more money. The current deal is I am paying them an hourly rate (I know, I know, this was the only way...) and then 10% on any materials that go through their trade account. This was with the caveat that I could source my own materials and buy them myself if cheaper. This I have done on a couple of big items (eg floor insulation 5k, rebar mesh 10k). Now they are saying they want to take 10% on all materials, whether through their account or bought by myself AND apply this retrospectively to the insulation and mesh.

I was willing to renegotiate, and said so - but TBH it sticks in the throat a bit that they are now wanting to apply new terms retrospectively. I'm of the view that if the terms they agreed at the start have not worked out, then that's on their head, and they'll know for next time. A renoegotiatin of our agreement going forward is OK with me.

What's your view?

 

3 minutes ago, PeterW said:

10% on handling client provided materials is pretty standard. It pays for the moving it, unloading it, reading the manual to install it etc. 

 

 

Plus one 

10% is standard 

You will probably have to renegotiate the hourly rate Or look for new builders 

Most that are on fixed price contracts are going to have to do a similar thing somewhere along the line 

There’s still more work than builders 

 

 

[Moonshine]

6 minutes ago, PeterW said:

10% on handling client provided materials is pretty standard. It pays for the moving it, unloading it, reading the manual to install it etc. 

 

Eh! Say I have 1,000 blocks delivered to site, unloaded by a hiab by the supplier to the nearest location to the build as possible.

Same for cement, insulation and sand.

If my brickie told me to he is adding 10% onto my invoice for client supplied materials I'm telling him to jog on.

[Tom]

...and applying retrospectively, contrary to the prior agreement?

 

15 minutes ago, recoveringbuilder said:

do you have a contract with them?

Hmmm, no.... ?. More of a "my word's my bond, mate".

[Nickfromwales]

10 minutes ago, Tom said:

...and applying retrospectively, contrary to the prior agreement?

 

Hmmm, no.... ?. More of a "my word's my bond, mate".

Are you happy with the work / timekeeping etc?

[Tom]

4 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Are you happy with the work / timekeeping etc?

Hmmm, yeah, I feel I need to check everything though. Especially since they built a wall in the wrong place....

 

We have no other options unfortunately, we're building in Nudura and there are no other builders free with any experience with this. We're at the stage of the walls going up now, so hopefully we can see things through to a watertight shell then part company.

[Happy Valley]

Doesn't sound like you have any other option unless you are willing for the build to stop and wait for someone else.

 

How about you go back and attempt to negotiate an agreement for 10% on own sourced materials from this point onwards. 

 

 

[Moonshine]

4 minutes ago, Happy Valley said:

Doesn't sound like you have any other option unless you are willing for the build to stop and wait for someone else.

 

How about you go back and attempt to negotiate an agreement for 10% on own sourced materials from this point onwards. 

 

I think this is probably the best way forward and ditch the builder when finished with the nudura part of the build.

The builder is probably cursing that they didn't get the mark up on the steel and insulation.

@Tom what big ticket items need to be brought or are you planning to buy prior to the nudura section of the build? Get shopping for a new builder for when it's a more conventional build.

[Tom]

2 minutes ago, Happy Valley said:

Doesn't sound like you have any other option unless you are willing for the build to stop and wait for someone else.

 

How about you go back and attempt to negotiate an agreement for 10% on own sourced materials from this point onwards.

Yep, I think you're right

 

8 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

 

I think this is probably the best way forward and ditch the builder when finished with the nudura part of the build.

The builder is probably cursing that they didn't get the mark up on the steel and insulation.

@Tom what big ticket items need to be brought or are you planning to buy prior to the nudura section of the build? Get shopping for a new builder for when it's a more conventional build.

It's their own fault TBH. Typical builder thing of just picking the phone up and ordering from TP - and why not, it's not them that's paying at the end of the day! Their mesh rebar price 117/sheet, I found online within about a minute searching for 103...

The only other big ticket things will be the concrete for the floors and nudura walls, timber for the roof, insulation for the roof and corrugated sheet for the covering.

 

...assuming they aren't expecting 10% on the MVHR, UFH, ASHP etc etc!

[Tom]

The other thing they handed me a bill for was for the hire of their manitou. They are charging me this at £30/hr + diesel. So far 38hrs. Does this seem reasonable?

[ToughButterCup]

21 minutes ago, Tom said:

Hmmm, yeah, I feel I need to check everything though. Especially since they built a wall in the wrong place.... and there are no other builders free with any experience with this....

 

Same situation; slightly different build up to it, but essentially the same.

 

That forced a parting of the ways and , to cite @epsilonGreedy, DIYmax.  4 full years on, still not finished. The key thing: can't emphasise this enough is a supportive partner. The stress she has had to endure is significant: it's the powerlessness - the lack of control - which is so jangling. Especially when professionally we have been used to technical excellence and delivering to high professional standards and tight budgets.

But never once have we regretted parting with the builder. 

[nod]

How much per man hour are they charging you ?

Are they getting through the amount of work that you expected ?

 

[Adsibob]

Whether the contract was oral or in writing is probably only relevant if you are going to sue them. You're not. I say "probably" because it does give you a bit of moral high ground, although if the builder is a shameless f*cker then that won't really count for anything.
Personally, I think that the most important thing in my view is being able to trust them. You clearly can't trust these guys. What's to say they don't renegotiate again in a few months time.

I appreciate labour is short right now and particularly if you are building with specialised materials, but if I was in your shoes I would prefer to go with someone else, even if it meant having a down time of two to three months whilst I found a replacement.

Whilst switching builders midway through is always a bit of a nightmare, with enough attention to detail it can be done. The incoming builder has to inspect everything that the outgoing builder has done before you agree a price so that he knows exactly what is unfinished/done incorrectly and what he needs to finish/remedy it. This happened to me in Christmas 2013. The day before Christmas eve I get a text from the foreman telling me he and his labourers have not been paid by the company I was paying for three months and that if he carries on like this he will default on his mortgage. They went bust and i had to find a new builder. We lost 10 weeks (during which time I got quite depressed, watching the big gaping whole at the back of my property, loosely covered with a tarp) but we ended with a really good result because by that point I was wiser and was able to be much more detailed about the contract I agreed with the second builder. I also lucked out to an extent because the second builder was a top quality guy. It was worth waiting for him to sort out the mess the first guy had left.

[Dave Jones]

personally id flip this and offer them a price with stage pays.

 

Get the plans properly QS'd so you are armed with the real hours each item will take then have a sit down with them and agree a price all in. They build X as agreed and you pay Y as agreed and so on. They have the opportunity to make a bit extra and you dont have to clock watch.

[JamesP]

@Tom Sorry to hear about your issues.

I know you are local to me but if you are looking for another builder in the future  I can recommend an exceptional builder here in South Devon. (Not me).

Hopefully you will remedy the current situation.

 

[scottishjohn]

56 minutes ago, Tom said:

The other thing they handed me a bill for was for the hire of their manitou. They are charging me this at £30/hr + diesel. So far 38hrs. Does this seem reasonable?

sounds like your contract with them did not have enough detail  in it at the beginning

[saveasteading]

Never heard of this 10% thing and cannot see any logic to it unless it includes offloading and handling and they do not charge their time. 

For supplying themselves 10% is low unless wastage is your cost. 

[Thedreamer]

I supplied 90% of materials for my self build and never heard of this 10% charge on materials.

 

From your post the materials supplied appear to be fairly standard and would be difficult to understand how they could justify a cost. I'm assuming here that they have been positioned at a spot on site which would require no extra work for them.

 

The plant by the hour seems expensive to me. Depending on the size of the builder I might even expect the plant to be included in their charge unless it was stated at the start of the job. 

[recoveringbuilder]

I supplied everything for our build, no charge from the builders they even allowed us to get something on their account from jewson when we couldn’t source it anywhere else at a decent price and just gave us the bill when they received it, electrician was the same he had an account with an electrical supplier which he allowed us to use . As for anything that needed handled their labourers attended to that, priced job which I expect they factored in any handling of materials.

[saveasteading]

Worth having a grown up chat with the builder, away from other workers. Ask what is the problem really, and see if a slight increase will suffice.

He may come clean that eg his workers want more or will walk.

 

But if he goes into take it or leave it mode, best let him go, as it will happen again.and again.

[Tom]

Thanks all. Interesting to hear the mix of views.

11 hours ago, nod said:

How much per man hour are they charging you ?

Are they getting through the amount of work that you expected ?

 

I pay the two main guys 25/hr each, then their labourer 15/hr (he makes glaciers seem like theyr're moving fast), and another younger chap who is actually very capable at 13/hr.

 

Compared to all that the 10% they want to charge on materials seems quite minor!

 

11 hours ago, JamesP said:

@Tom Sorry to hear about your issues.

I know you are local to me but if you are looking for another builder in the future  I can recommend an exceptional builder here in South Devon. (Not me).

Hopefully you will remedy the current situation.

 

Thanks James, I might take you up on that.

 

10 hours ago, Thedreamer said:

I supplied 90% of materials for my self build and never heard of this 10% charge on materials.

 

From your post the materials supplied appear to be fairly standard and would be difficult to understand how they could justify a cost. I'm assuming here that they have been positioned at a spot on site which would require no extra work for them.

 

The plant by the hour seems expensive to me. Depending on the size of the builder I might even expect the plant to be included in their charge unless it was stated at the start of the job. 

I'm paying by the hour so any handling is on me anyway. I agree if it was a fixed price the cost of the plant would have been included, as I'm paying them per hour then I guess paying for the manitou by the hour is reasonable.

 

8 hours ago, recoveringbuilder said:

...priced job which I expect they factored in any handling of materials.

Yep, which is why if I'm paying them by the hour any extra handling (which there isn't) would be paid by me anyway

 

8 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Worth having a grown up chat with the builder, away from other workers. Ask what is the problem really, and see if a slight increase will suffice.

He may come clean that eg his workers want more or will walk.

 

But if he goes into take it or leave it mode, best let him go, as it will happen again.and again.

I would definitely be tempted to do this, but we are now getting to the bit of the build when the walls should go up quickly and I need their experience with working with Nudura.

 

At te end of the day, this extra 10% might cost me an additional 5-10k or something. Not a massive amount in the grand scheme of things.

[Dave Jones]

17 minutes ago, Tom said:

 

 

 I need their experience with working with Nudura.

 

 

 

cant be that hard its a 1 day course.

[Happy Valley]

My builder had never used ICF before this build. He is doing a brilliant job. He had a few hours on site training/discussions with a seasoned local ICF builder. It is more down to the builder who has 30 years experience and has a positive "can do" attitude imho.