Fitting Windows

[crispy_wafer]

Showing my lack of knowledge in this area...  Seems like I'm getting charged an arm and a leg for installation on my quotes, I reckon people see self build and start assuming 'loads a money', am I allowed to fit my own windows in a self build or does the job need certifying by an accredited installer?

[Mr Punter]

Yes, fit them yourself.  Lots of the approved installers charge a fortune and do a crappy job.

[markc]

As above, fit them yourself and you will more than likely get a better job done. I’ve seen some horrendous “accredited” fitting jobs

[PeterW]

If BCO is signing off the whole build then anyone can fit the windows - most of us have done that with “standard” windows, when you get into the big Aluclad or big sliders which are best left to the professionals 

[IanR]

2 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 when you get into the big Aluclad or big sliders which are best left to the professionals 

+1 to this.

Recognise the risk you are taking on. If you are installing, then you are likely receiving a kerb side delivery, so responsible for handing and any damage from that point on.

I had around 96m² of glazing and doors Installed for about £8K iirc, with 16 man days for the install, delivery costs, consumables, hiring lift equipment, contingency to cover corrections and repairs - it's a premium, but removes the majority of risk and arguments about where damage was caused.

[dnb]

Fit them yourself. You then have the choice of fixings and what products you use to seal them to the walls. 

I've fitted all of my aluminium frame windows (some documentation in my blog) but as PeterW suggests, I have not fitted my own bi-fold doors yet since I am waiting for some professional assistance (and I need help lifting door size laminated glazing units because I'm an unfit desk flyer!).

[craig]

To give an idea, we supply only and supply and fit. We recommend the full package as the installers are fully aware of the best practice in placing packers, taping, adjustments etc.

A lot of the call outs we receive after a supply only are due to poorly installed windows and then a call out charge is applicable for the visit and corrections. Most are not noted until weeks/months after installation.

 

Warranties can also be impacted by poorly installed windows on a supply only.

 

Cost wise, you should be looking at £250/£350 per man per day for labour, excluding materials & lifting equipment.

Edited August 4, 2021 by craig

[Mr Punter]

21 minutes ago, craig said:

To give an idea, we supply only and supply and fit. We recommend the full package as the installers are fully aware of the best practice in placing packers, taping, adjustments etc.

A lot of the call outs we receive after a supply only are due to poorly installed windows and then a call out charge is applicable for the visit and corrections. Most are not noted until weeks/months after installation.

 

Warranties can also be impacted by poorly installed windows on a supply only.

 

Cost wise, you should be looking at £250/£350 per man per day for labour, excluding materials & lifting equipment.

 

Well those costs seem to square with @IanR and are quite reasonable if they do a good job.  Sadly this is not always the case and I have had experience of the job being rushed, wrong materials (cheap substitute for Compriband etc.) glass and powder coating scratched as the units are manoeuvred etc.  As ever, if you are lucky enough to get a firm that are professional, skilled and at reasonable cost then you would do well to use them.

[craig]

5 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

As ever, if you are lucky enough to get a firm that are professional, skilled and at reasonable cost then you would do well to use them.

 

That's why we only have four teams across the UK and when we do take on another team, we vet them for a few projects alongside our other teams before we go down the road of training on the products etc.

We then get them involved with some service work before given them a full project. It doesn't always work out but you put it down to experience and learn from it.

[andy]

33 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

As ever, if you are lucky enough to get a firm that are professional, skilled and at reasonable cost then you would do well to use them

Green Building Store. Job done.

[crispy_wafer]

4 hours ago, andy said:

Green Building Store. Job done.

Thx, I'll given them a schedule, will be interesting to see what comes back?

[SimonD]

4 hours ago, andy said:

Green Building Store. Job done.

Hmmm, GBS wanted about £8k to install mine! I know this company has a great reputation but I went elsewhere as my experience of finalising an order was very underwhelming and they seemed disinterested in my custom.

[craig]

5 hours ago, andy said:

Green Building Store. Job done.

I can tell you I know from experience that it’s not. It’s not with any supplier, their is always something and we all have to re-attend.

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by craig

[SimonD]

9 hours ago, crispy_wafer said:

Showing my lack of knowledge in this area...  Seems like I'm getting charged an arm and a leg for installation on my quotes, I reckon people see self build and start assuming 'loads a money', am I allowed to fit my own windows in a self build or does the job need certifying by an accredited installer?

 

To follow on from what's already been said, what are the sizes of your windows?

 

You can definitely do them yourself but to risk repeating what's already been said, there are two mains questions to consider:

 

Do you have the machinery/equipment/manpower to take delivery, unload and lift the windows into place or are you willing to get it in and use it?

Do you know how to detail the window installation and are you willing to spend the time to learn?

 

I've done it twice. The first time they were standard sized windows in a renovation. The delivery driver kindly helped me unload, sharing the carrying to the back of the house. The carpenter I used and I could easily lift the windows into place. Easy.

 

The second time I had to hire in a telehandler for offloading nearly 2t of windows and doors, and lift 3g windows up to 200kg and 2.5 x 2.6m using hired in specialist glass lifting equipment. Luckily on the 2nd the manufacturer provided me with all the detailing information necessary for self install.

 

Machinery and equipment hire/purchase cost me about £1k and I've definintely spent a few hundred on the airtightness/sealing/fitting tapes, sealants, foams, spacers and flashings needed.

 

It also took me a long time to finish it! As for warranty risk, it really depends on whether I've followed the detailing instructions correctly or not.

 

If you're lifting any especially heavy or large pieces, you'll need to think hard about your lifting plan - this was the most challenging aspect of my 2nd fitting.

 

2nd time was a right headache and fraught with high stakes risk! It scared the hell out of me, but got done in the end without any mishap.

 

 

[crispy_wafer]

Quick reply

 

One window is a specialist job, no question about that, and am will absolutely pay for fitting on that, and that does require a lift etc.

 

The rest of the windows are your run of the mill std casement upvc type affair largest being 1900*1050 down to 600*1050 - 12 windows in all, then a back door and 2 sets of french doors.

Maybe I'm being a tight arse, and expecting champagne for beer money.  Happy to be told to reign expectations in, that's the market rate, and actually a decent deal...

 

Example

[James Newport]

12 months ago a 2m wide PVC window with that same configuration cost me £225 for supply only, including VAT. Took a guy a couple of hours to fit it. 

[saveasteading]

If I can do it then so can anyone half practical.

I always used professional companies except when they couldn't find the labour and the job was small. Then I would do it along with another manager (other trades had a resistance to getting involved).

 

There are things to learn, but it has been obvious to me that many 'professional' fitters didn't know them either.

Getting to know the bosses and chatting to fitters (and manufacturers) you learn a lot too.

 

Most tips are probably on youtube though I have not looked.

 

From what I have seen go wrong....

 

Dimensions is the biggest issue, and you are taking on the total risk on frame and glass, and embarrassment, if it doesn't fit.

 

How much tolerance? One cowboy told me 5mm all round at ground level, but 10mm upper floors as nobody sees it. Lots of mastic.

5mm is a big gap but not much tolerance.

 

Squareness too, although aluminium can sometimes move a bit.

 

Then the use of packers, and making sure it is fixed well.

No screws touching the glass, or it breaks.

 

Fitting from indoors or out, ground floor or upper?

 

Easy and not just the labour saving but the margins and risk costs too. 

 

Up to you then. Perhaps others can advise the difference in cost IF you can find a supplier who prices accordingly.

I am estimating supply and fit at £400/m2 perhaps. More for fancy or big panes.

 

 

 

[craig]

14 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

How much tolerance? One cowboy told me 5mm all round at ground level, but 10mm upper floors as nobody sees it. Lots of mastic.

5mm is a big gap but not much tolerance.

 

To be honest, tolerances will vary dependant on the construction/installation method.

 

Fitting between brickwork, then 5mm all around is ideal, 10mm all around verging on too big. We will normally go 5mm, screw fixed through the frame (screws hidden behind keeps). This allows for a nice mastic finish / flashing finish or a sleeker compriband finish. 10mm all around is standard on a new build timber frame as an example. 

 

14 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Dimensions is the biggest issue

 

I can't speak for all suppliers but manufacturers have a +/- tolerance as well, 3mm for example per window. So when you have a window with 3 units coupled for example, that can deduct 9mm from the tolerances over the width and leave you with 11mm in width. Then you have the project I'm doing this week in Glasgow built with in CLT and every opening is 5mm narrower all round in width and height.

 

It's a tight fit, really tight fit - as we agreed a 5mm tolerance all around (aluminium Schuco windows). Everyone has tolerances and when they work against you most people blame the window manufacturer/supplier and it's not always the case.

Edited August 5, 2021 by craig

[saveasteading]

22 minutes ago, craig said:

tolerances will vary dependant

On reflection, i think he said 10 ground floor and 20 upper floor or I wouldn't have been shocked.

 

Good comment re manufacturer tolerance. If it is too big to fit what do you do?

[craig]

9 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

If it is too big to fit what do you do?

 

Timber? We'll shave off as much as we can all around, between 3mm & 10mm if need be dependant on the system and then reseal the cut timber. Aluminium? panic alongside the client, frame supplier and architect.

[saveasteading]

I  have seen perhaps 5% of windows go back to the workshop. I guess that big errors are easier to fix than small ones on the frames, but the glass is wasted.

Tiny adjustments will be a fiddle but perhaps can retain the glass.

Hadn't thought of it before, but if appropriate (big job) it might be clever of them to fix the frames, then make the glazing.

 

The biggest lesson I learnt was never to trust the opening size stated, but to measure every one, as built. then windows of theoretically the same size might all be different.

 

 

 

 

[NewToAllOfThis]

On 31/07/2021 at 16:34, Oz07 said:

I've never had a problem with plasterboard boxes but a lot don't like them. @ProDave is in the trade and think he is happy with them. I've never heard of these being fitted before boarding/2nd fix surely it defeats the object?

 

On 05/08/2021 at 14:01, crispy_wafer said:

Quick reply

 

One window is a specialist job, no question about that, and am will absolutely pay for fitting on that, and that does require a lift etc.

 

The rest of the windows are your run of the mill std casement upvc type affair largest being 1900*1050 down to 600*1050 - 12 windows in all, then a back door and 2 sets of french doors.

Maybe I'm being a tight arse, and expecting champagne for beer money.  Happy to be told to reign expectations in, that's the market rate, and actually a decent deal...

 

Example

 

[Russell griffiths]

1500x 1000 is a small window in my book, when they get to 3000x 1600 then they get a bit heavy, window fitting must be the most overcharged job going.