WC / Shower Room on Ground Floor vs Building Regs

[PeterW]

If it was me the top floor would be master suite with the terrace - gym seems a waste ..! 

[Buzz]

By the time i had walked up two flights of stairs i would need somewhere to sit down ?

[BartW]

20 minutes ago, PeterW said:

If it was me the top floor would be master suite with the terrace - gym seems a waste ..! 

 

9 minutes ago, Buzz said:

By the time i had walked up two flights of stairs i would need somewhere to sit down ?

sadly, that is one thing to keep me sane after a long day at work, so a gym is a must ? we were gonna have it as an outbuilding in the garden, but decided it would be better to have it at home, free up the already small garden, and add a terrace to it too. 
 

first world problems of course ?

[DevilDamo]

I am aware your original question was in relation to sanitary facilities in the ground floor/principle storey, which has probably been answered!?!

 

Even with the above and now the additional plans have been uploaded, we can see other areas that may need to be reviewed and possibly re-designed to make it more practical and feasible.

 

In addition to the plans, do you also have elevation and section drawing as I assume the latter helped with the design of the second floor?

[BartW]

Hi,

yes thank you. I have some visuals and elevations to accompany. 
 

see attached. 
 

Bart

 

 

 

gh pl250 front and rear elevations rev b.pdf gh pl250 side elevations rev b.pdf

[Buzz]

That looks amazing , would still rather have a bar on the top foor though ?

[BartW]

Haha thanks, priorities change with age, and I am going to ensure there is enough future proofing in case it ever becomes a man cave with private terrace for private parties

[Mr Punter]

That looks good but complex to build.  The detail where you have an external terrace above the dining area will need careful consideration.

 

 

[BartW]

3 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

That looks good but complex to build.  The detail where you have an external terrace above the dining area will need careful consideration.

 

 

Thanks. It is in fact one of the things that are doing my head in right now. How to / where to / stop the wood cladding, what to turn it into etc. Rain water falls and all other likes. I am slowly turning these concepts into a working set of drawings. Hopefully should have it completed in a week or two (of my sleepless design nights )

 

Bart

[DevilDamo]

As mentioned above, those terraces are usually quite interesting to detail. You will either end up with a bulkhead in the rooms below or a step up onto the terraces from their respected floor levels.

 

How high are your ceilings as the stair from first to second floors appears to comprise 17no. risers so an overall rise of approx. 3.4m?

[BartW]

2 hours ago, DevilDamo said:

As mentioned above, those terraces are usually quite interesting to detail. You will either end up with a bulkhead in the rooms below or a step up onto the terraces from their respected floor levels.

 

How high are your ceilings as the stair from first to second floors appears to comprise 17no. risers so an overall rise of approx. 3.4m?

 

Yes, the thickness of the roof buildup above the dining area / below the terrace is certainly something that will need drawing up in detail. There are a few things I am considering:

- Kingspan TR26 for structural roof terraces

- thinner joists in that area

- as you stated, bulkhead dropping down over the dining area

- inverted / hybrid roof insulation design

 

And quite possibly a combination of all of the above.

 

As for the staircase, it is the very vague quality of the planning drawings that I am refining as we speak. The finished ceiling height on ground and first floors will be 2400mm. By pushing a step forward I am achieving it within 13 steps, and end up with a decent 1030mm long landing. Regs say at least as long as wide for the landing. I wonder if I may be able to get away with a narrower staircase to the top floor. At the moment I am proposing 900mm wide. Every little helps, they say, to get the room back to the Master Bedroom.

 

Quick snippet attached below:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

This seems as good a place as any to ask this question;

On a new build atm, with level access etc, wheelchair friendly downstairs WC ( cloakroom ) and also a ground floor en-suite which is deemed as wheelchair accessible by the BCO. Downstairs en-suite is shower / basin / WC only, no bath. 

Q1: If this was the only means of bathing in this new build, would it satisfy disabled ( class II ? ) requirements in this, the year of 2021 ( England ), eg would there be a requirement to get a wheelchair bound visitor to a bath?
 

There is in this dwelling an upstairs master bathroom also, which has a bath, separate shower, basin and WC. BCO is asking for a 33” door to be installed ( nearest size to the the 750mm across the opening that the door supplier can provide ) which I felt was creating unnecessary work ( there is a 27” door there atm to free up space ). 

Surely the upstairs bathroom can be deemed ancillary if the downstairs en-suite is “accessible”?

Q2: If the dwelling has not been asked to comply to full Doc M, eg no considerations to independent unassisted disabled residence  ergo has not been built to receive somebody who is single and wheelchair bound, then which level of classification should it strive to comply with? 
I cannot see why the upstairs bathroom would need the 750mm requirement if the dwelling already offers accessible ( assisted ) bathing and toilet facilities on the ground floor. Can anyone offer an educated opinion please!
 

TIA. 

[Ferdinand]

RE: Gym

 

Have you considered how you are going to get all the heavy gubbins up there with that somewhat intricate staircase route?

 

Have you had work done about structural calcs for the gym?

 

(Personally, as a gym part-owner of a formerly upstairs gym, I think you are possibly mad just putting it there !) 

 

Re: Parking

 

I think you may need 3 spaces for that many bedrooms, but you say you have PP already.

F

 

[saveasteading]

On 09/01/2021 at 23:32, BartW said:

sounds like I might have to study Part M a bit more

 

Not just Part M but A to Z.

Seriously, you have to read through all of it, as it is not the BCO job to design it, or this forum to do other than help with problems.

It will come in handy throughout the project too.

I find that printing the important pages, and marking up in highlighter saves a lot of re-searching, especially when clauses seem to conflict.

 

GYM. I know about gyms. 

On concrete ground floor, no problems.

On concrete upper floors, some issues

On joisted upper floor....challenging.

 

If it is just for you then make sure it works for you, then call it something else on the drawing.  ie design as a lightweight gym but don't flag it.

Then if it is noisy downstairs it is just your family that is bothered. Also the BCO won't demand design for dynamic loading.

 

Even kit that appears to be static (rowing machine/cross-trainer sets up a harmonic motion in joists that is very perturbing.

On top of that is the noise which thumps through the building.

The very worst effect is from synchronised movement by multiple persons.

No the worst is dropping a heavy weight.

 

You will need to ensure hat the gym floor is very strong, very stiff, and has acoustic insulation.

If you tell a kit house company, then they may well not want to do such a non-standard thing.

If you don't tell them you will get problems.

 

[Mr Punter]

3 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

This seems as good a place as any to ask this question;

On a new build atm, with level access etc, wheelchair friendly downstairs WC ( cloakroom ) and also a ground floor en-suite which is deemed as wheelchair accessible by the BCO. Downstairs en-suite is shower / basin / WC only, no bath. 

Q1: If this was the only means of bathing in this new build, would it satisfy disabled ( class II ? ) requirements in this, the year of 2021 ( England ), eg would there be a requirement to get a wheelchair bound visitor to a bath?
 

There is in this dwelling an upstairs master bathroom also, which has a bath, separate shower, basin and WC. BCO is asking for a 33” door to be installed ( nearest size to the the 750mm across the opening that the door supplier can provide ) which I felt was creating unnecessary work ( there is a 27” door there atm to free up space ). 

Surely the upstairs bathroom can be deemed ancillary if the downstairs en-suite is “accessible”?

Q2: If the dwelling has not been asked to comply to full Doc M, eg no considerations to independent unassisted disabled residence  ergo has not been built to receive somebody who is single and wheelchair bound, then which level of classification should it strive to comply with? 
I cannot see why the upstairs bathroom would need the 750mm requirement if the dwelling already offers accessible ( assisted ) bathing and toilet facilities on the ground floor. Can anyone offer an educated opinion please!
 

TIA. 

 

I don't know why they are asking for more than one bathroom to be wheelchair accessible.  I often see ground floor utilities in new build that are capable of being adapted to wet rooms.  For the M4(2) option there needs to be a cat 2 bathroom on the same floor as the principal bedroom.

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

 

I don't know why they are asking for more than one bathroom to be wheelchair accessible.  I often see ground floor utilities in new build that are capable of being adapted to wet rooms.  For the M4(2) option there needs to be a cat 2 bathroom on the same floor as the principal bedroom.

Yes, my thoughts too. 
The principal bedroom is intended ( later in life when the stairs become an issue ) to be the downstairs bedroom, but we can ‘define’ that now for the purposes of getting signed off…..or so you’d think.

Getting feedback from the BCO and designer that the upstairs bathroom “under the new regs” needs to have the 750mm opening. I’m yet to find out about these new regs ?. 
1 bathroom downstairs which you can get a wheelchair to, plus the cloakroom, and still they want to carry a wheelchair bound person up the two 1/2 flights of stairs, turning 180 degrees half way up, put them back in their chair, and then wheel them into the upstairs bathroom. Curiouser, and curiouser……. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Nickfromwales

[Russell griffiths]

Ok then mr Nick @Nickfromwales, what regs say you have to have a bath. 

I hadn’t planned on putting a bath in, but at the last minute did, so if the house didn’t have a bath, what then. 

 

[SimonD]

3 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

Ok then mr Nick @Nickfromwales, what regs say you have to have a bath. 

I hadn’t planned on putting a bath in, but at the last minute did, so if the house didn’t have a bath, what then. 

 

 

Sorry to jump in but if you're not already aware, my wife's regulations apply here. All dwellings must have at least one generous bath or more, otherwise it isn't habitable. These obviously supercede G5 which otherwise states either or. Unless I'm missing some other obscure regs...

[Nickfromwales]

10 hours ago, SimonD said:

 

Sorry to jump in but if you're not already aware, my wife's regulations apply here. All dwellings must have at least one generous bath or more, otherwise it isn't habitable. These obviously supercede G5 which otherwise states either or. Unless I'm missing some other obscure regs...

And bath water at a minimum of 60oC, which is still too hot to dunk my nutsack into 45 mins after she gets out. 
 

[Nickfromwales]

So, can it be “either / or”? A new build dwelling can have just a shower ONLY ? No need for a bath eg if that shower is in a room that is deemed ‘accessible’? 
INPUT!!

[LSB]

When looking for first homes for my daughters lots of 'starter' homes only had showers so I assume that this is okay.

My MIL also changed her bathroom to have just a shower.

[Nickfromwales]

4 minutes ago, LSB said:

When looking for first homes for my daughters lots of 'starter' homes only had showers so I assume that this is okay.

My MIL also changed her bathroom to have just a shower.

Cheers. I’m asking only for a new build on today’s regs. Got a BCO on site and it feels as if this is his first job ever……. The book is being quoted to the letter…..and beyond.  

[newhome]

On 18/08/2021 at 18:40, Mr Punter said:

 

I don't know why they are asking for more than one bathroom to be wheelchair accessible.  I often see ground floor utilities in new build that are capable of being adapted to wet rooms.  For the M4(2) option there needs to be a cat 2 bathroom on the same floor as the principal bedroom.

AFAIK you only need a ground floor WC to be accessible in buildings that are not defined as accessible and adaptable dwellings (it will state that as a planning condition if relevant). If not you only need one accessible WC on the primary entrance level but they like a shower too, or provision for a shower. Not sure why the BCO is going on about the upstairs bathrooms WRT width of the internal doors. There is absolutely no need for a bath. Sounds like the BCO has been looking at Category 2 in the M regs which is not relevant unless defined in the PP. 

 

[SimonD]

3 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

So, can it be “either / or”? A new build dwelling can have just a shower ONLY ? No need for a bath eg if that shower is in a room that is deemed ‘accessible’? 
INPUT!!

 

What  @newhome says. The only part of building regs I.m aware that requires a bath to be installed and accessible on the same storey as the master bedroom is in M4(2). However this is an optional requirement that only applies if compliance is stipulated as a planning condition. So if you don't have a planning condition, the regs for accessibility are M4(1) which just says:

 

Sanitary facilities
WC facilities
1.17 To enable easy access to a WC, a dwelling should comply with all of the following.
a. A room (which may be a WC/cloakroom or a bathroom) containing a WC is provided on
the entrance storey or, where there are no habitable rooms on the entrance storey, on the
principal storey or the entrance storey.
b. There is clear space to access the WC in accordance with Diagram 1.3.
c. Any basin is positioned to avoid impeding access.
d. The door to the room opens outwards and has a clear opening width in accordance with
Table 1.1.

 

I've quoted the other sections below in case you're inclined to read:

 

 

Part G says in G5 Bathrooms:

 

A bathroom must be provided containing a wash basin and either a fixed bath or a shower.

 

Scale of provision and layout in
dwellings
5.6 Any dwelling (house or flat) must have at
least one bathroom with a fixed bath or shower,
and a washbasin.

 

Scale of provision and layout in
buildings with rooms for residential
purposes
5.8 The number of fixed baths or showers
and washbasins in buildings with rooms for
residential purposes should be in accordance
with BS 6465-1:2006 and A1:2009 Sanitary
installations. Code of practice for the design
of sanitary facilities and scales of provision of
sanitary and associated appliances

 

 

Building Regs for Access to and Use of Buildings Part M4(2)

 

Optional requirement M4(2): Category 2 –Accessible and adaptable dwellings

 

2.18 The provisions of Section 2B apply only where a planning condition requires compliance with
optional requirement M4(2) for accessible and adaptable dwellings (see paragraphs 0.3 to 0.6).

 

WC facilities on the entrance storey

 

2.27 To provide step-free access to a WC that is suitable and convenient for some wheelchair users
and, where reasonable, to make provision for showering, dwellings should comply with all of the
following.

 

C In a two or three storey dwelling with three or more bedrooms, the room with the WC and
basin also provides an installed level access shower or a potential level access shower, and the
shower, WC and basin (together with their associated clear access zones) meet the provisions
of Diagram 2.5. Examples of compliant WC layouts are shown in Diagram 2.

 

Bathrooms

 

2.29 To provide convenient access to a suitable bathroom, the dwelling should comply with all of the following.
a.Every dwelling has a bathroom that contains a WC, a basin and a bath, that is located on the
same floor as the double bedroom, described as the principal bedroom in paragraph 2.25b.
b.The WC, basin and bath (together with their associated clear access zones) meet the provisions
of Diagram 2.5. Examples of bathroom layouts are shown in Diagram 2.7.
c.Provision for a potential level access shower is made within the bathroom if not provided
elsewhere within the dwelling.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by SimonD