A developer wants to put a drain through our land...

[Conor]

Long story short. There's a development of five large (300m² ish) houses being built across the road from us. The builder popped on Friday and said they haven't sorted their drainage yet.... Firstly I'm amazed they got planning permission with out a drainage plan but that's beside the point.

 

Anyway, we are between them and the nearest river and he doesn't think they'll be allowed to discharged to the combined sewer. So they want to lay a drain pipe though about 40m of our land to the river at our rear boundary.

 

I've no objection on principle.... And we're basically a building site anyway so no disruption to us. What's the usual procedure? Is a wayleave normally used for this or is there another way? 

 

My only concern is we may want to build a second house on that part of the land in the future... Would this be a (legal) hindrance?

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Conor

[joe90]

As long as it’s on a  boundary so as to not hinder future building I would want to know how much they would pay you fir the privilege (oh and they pay for and sort any legal wayleave!)

[ProDave]

If they have no drainage, they won't get building control sign off and won't be able to sell the houses. So my opening response would be "how much are you offering for a wayleave agreement? "

[Conor]

14 minutes ago, joe90 said:

As long as it’s on a  boundary so as to not hinder future building I would want to know how much they would pay you fir the privilege (oh and they pay for and sort any legal wayleave!)

That's the issue... If we dont get PP for a second house, we'll be selling a 2-4m strip of land to our neighbours who want to build a garage and extension. Hmm

[Pete]

19 minutes ago, Conor said:

Long story short. There's a development of five large (300m² ish) houses being built across the road from us. The builder popped on Friday and said they haven't sorted their drainage yet.... Firstly I'm amazed they got planning permission with out a drainage plan but that's beside the point.

 

Anyway, we are between them and the nearest river and he doesn't think they'll be allowed to discharged to the combined sewer. So they want to lay a drain pipe though about 40m of our land to the river at our rear boundary.

 

I've no objection on principle.... And we're basically a building site anyway so no disruption to us. What's the usual procedure? Is a wayleave normally used for this or is there another way? 

 

My only concern is we may want to build a second house on that part of the land in the future... Would this be a (legal) hindrance?

 

When we asked the farmer to go through his land to connect to the main drain running across his land he said yes but there would be a cost implication. Move forward a few months and the farmer asked us to move the drain further towards a hedge rather than being in the middle of the field as there was planning for houses and he could loose £100,000 if he lost a building plot due to our drain. As others have said think very carefully a bout your response because there are legal documents to be prepared that cover both parties that the developer will have to pay for and if you are planning on building/selling that land in the future you need to take all this into account. Then see how you want to spend your new found wealth!!

[Ferdinand]

Who will own the drain?

 

If it is 4 four houses does that make it owned by the utility as being common?

[ProDave]

5 hours ago, Conor said:

That's the issue... If we dont get PP for a second house, we'll be selling a 2-4m strip of land to our neighbours who want to build a garage and extension. Hmm

In that case, you need a careful plan of what you (or someone else) might build in BOTH those scenarios and make sure any pipe is not in the way for either activity.

 

It that makes it impossible to route the pipe through your plot then tell them so and say sorry.

 

Or I would certainly want the payment from the builder to exceed what you might get for selling the strip of land to the neighbour if allowing the pipe made it not viable for your neighbours extension.

 

I think our neighbour (previous owner) might have been badly advised. He has a large garden that would certainly have supported a new build house. but 10 years ago a 33kV underground electricity cable, serving a wind farm, was placed under his plot.  With the clearance distances you have to leave, you now can't build much there.

[Ferdinand]

29 minutes ago, ProDave said:

With the clearance distances you have to leave, you now can't build much there.

 

Perhaps he could build an Arc de Triomphe without the top bit ?.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Ferdinand

[AliG]

A few years ago I looked at a piece of land that had a old BT radio mast on it.

 

I was checking that access was OK and when I spoke to the guy at BT he said that they used a formula based on what the land was worth without the access and with the access and then asked for half of the difference which I think was £80,000 in this instance if I remember correctly. It might even have been more.

 

Can they build a soakaway if they don't have access to the drains or is there another route not through your land? If not, I know it sounds greedy but I guarantee that a developer would take you for every penny if it was the other way around. That land is presumably worth £1m with 4 large houses on it, so without drainage access it could be worth hundreds of thousand less.

 

Certainly you must make absolutely sure that the drainage does not devalue your land because it cannot be built on etc. Again, I guarantee that if you signed a way leave and then came back and asked them to change it so you could sell a plot they would take you to the cleaners.

Edited September 28, 2020 by AliG

[Conor]

5 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Who will own the drain?

 

If it is 4 four houses does that make it owned by the utility as being common?

 

Very good question. I assume the developer would retain ownership. 

 

Another facet is that they need to sort this asap... As some of the houses are probably 2-3 months from completion. I know first hand that both a license to discharge application and any kind of private land agreement takes at least the same length of time...

 

I can picture a route that would skirt our new house and not cause too much of a problem as we'd be keeping a good 4metre gap between us and the second house. 

 

An alternative would be for me to lay my own drain from the front of the property and allow them to connect to it for an modest annual fee ?

[Roundtuit]

Say no, and let them come up with a persuasive solution ?

[Big Jimbo]

Money, money, money....it's only funny, if it's in your pocket, not there's. A client many years ago, purchased strips of land 20cm wide from loads of various farmers. several years later, land got released by the council for planning. (bought inside the village boundary).  350 new houses. He charge £2k a house to the developer, who had purchased the land and had'nt spotted the 20cm wide strip. £700k later........Nice earner.

[Mr Punter]

I had a request from someone to connect drainage onto land owned by us, where the local water authority showed their pipe on our land.  We had our own development plans so declined to allow them and after much sulking they did a pumped connection some 75 metres long.  Had we agreed it could have really curtailed our plans and we may have been responsible for any damage caused to their pipe.  They may also have been able to access in the future for maintenance / repairs which would have been unacceptable for our future purchasers.

[SuperJohnG]

On the flip side here. 

 

IF it isn't going to cause any hassle by mitigating any of the risks above then it might be a better way to agree some cash and move forward. 

 

I have to pass through three fields to get power for our plot, three separate owners which was a worry. One if them is an organic dairy farmer.....hard times and low earnings. He could have asked for 10k and it would have stuffed me, but he hasn't. He just agreed and signed the wayleave and really helped me out, along with thr other farmer who owns the other field. Ill forever be thankful for them not being greedy. 

 

I know its a developer but worth thinking about it in that context 

[Ferdinand]

If I wasn't sure I would spend a couple of hundred taking advice on this - rough cost of his alternative, but idea of the potential risk / cost profile to you. That would give your ballpark. Half a day for a local surveyor to do an ballpark assessment and write a letter? 

 

I think you are realistically talking about 20k or 50 or 80k numbers here, not 5k or 10k.

 

Your really need to think carefully about your options, and the cost landscape one each one. And how much you need the money - one option is that if he offers a sufficient sum you should actually be comparing it with the added value you would generate on your second house, not the overall cost. What is better - 50k and walkaway plus a bigger garden for your existing, or 100k added value and the hassle / satisfaction of another build?

 

What you actually *want* is also a key factor here.

 

Assuming this is Holywood, Belfast, I suspect the plots are worth a little less than @AliG's £1m - perhaps more like 750k? Assuming more like £2000-2500 per sqm on 1200 sqm for prices of 600-750k each? Very very guestimating.

 

Just thoughts.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

Apologies for my couple of typos. I think the meaning is clear.

[Oz07]

Are we talking foul drain here or storm? I'm assuming storm as can't see that a water authority can refuse connection for foul to combined.

 

Secondly I built on some ground where there was combined drainage available and a separate storm in the road. 6m deep, 27k connection cost. I got the BCO, without even doing a perculation test, to draft me an email saying local ground unsuitable for soakaway. Water board then allowed me to connect the surface water to the combined system. Saved me a few bob. 

 

You need to know more about his options before you start seeing pound signs. He may just not want to install soakaways. 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Oz07

[Conor]

10 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

I

 

Assuming this is Holywood, Belfast, I suspect the plots are worth a little less than @AliG's £1m - perhaps more like 750k? Assuming more like £2000-2500 per sqm on 1200 sqm for prices of 600-750k each? Very very guestimating.

 

Just thoughts.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A building site for single dwelling here go from £250-£325k. Completed house worth around £600-£800k. For our potential site, would be on the low end of that range as it would be relatively small.

 

Had a chat with the architect about this and said he's had cases where people have been able to build over drains/utilities with agreement with the owner. I'd be getting that in writing at the start that would allow me to build over the drain (within agreed limitation) without seeking approval from the owner. Meeting builder tomorrow and going to set out my situation and let them come back to me.

[Declan52]

Instead of cash changing hands could you get something from him. Hire of a digger or scaffolding when you need it or even something like doing your driveway if you pay for materials. Won't cost him as much as a large wad of cash. Then it's only the actual position of the pipe run to sort out. A large builder with all their contacts might be very handy to have access to. 

[Conor]

@Declan52 that was my first thought.... I've a lot of clay to muck away, loads of stones to bring in and landscaping to do. they also have their own diggers, handlers and dumpers parked up over the weekends that would be very handy for me...

[Declan52]

There you go then. When you meet tomorrow then just straight up ask what can he do for you with regards removing spoil, hardcore etc. Be honest your not interested in trying to do him over for cash and would rather come to some sort of agreement over what help he can give to you. Guarantee he will be getting hardcore much cheaper than you ever could. Plus don't forget his black book of lorry drivers, digger drivers, plasterers, sparks etc that you will need. With his build only over the road you can easily see if his work is good or not.

[Carrerahill]

On 28/09/2020 at 10:54, Conor said:

Long story short. There's a development of five large (300m² ish) houses being built across the road from us. The builder popped on Friday and said they haven't sorted their drainage yet.... Firstly I'm amazed they got planning permission with out a drainage plan but that's beside the point.

 

Anyway, we are between them and the nearest river and he doesn't think they'll be allowed to discharged to the combined sewer. So they want to lay a drain pipe though about 40m of our land to the river at our rear boundary.

 

I've no objection on principle.... And we're basically a building site anyway so no disruption to us. What's the usual procedure? Is a wayleave normally used for this or is there another way? 

 

My only concern is we may want to build a second house on that part of the land in the future... Would this be a (legal) hindrance?

 

I'd get him to route it so that you can build in the future, and hopefully it is deep enough, I would also have him leave you a connection point so you can tie in your house or garage or whatever you want as well.

 

Also, you need it in writing who is responsible for it all if things go wrong in 20 years time and start flooding your garden etc.

 

You also want to make sure any drain is laid carefully and to spec and potentially insist it is signed off by a civil engineer etc.

 

I would also probably try and arrange as much of this as I could over a cup of coffee and see what could be done. Depends on the type of chap, maybe the bartar system will work for him. Maybe you can get some labour and materials etc. you could have your place done in 2 months if you end up with a part time squad on your build!

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Carrerahill

[Conor]

Update. We're going ahead with this. Agreed a route down the other side of the house where we'd never develop as it's only 5m from the boundary, and agreed an acceptable fee for the wayleave rights. We got some advice and the fee we were recommend to ask for was pretty much double what we had initially thought... Put this the developer and they agreed. They've no alternative really.

 

Best of all.... We don't see a penny of this as it goes straight to the mortgage company ?

[TonyT]

Is he providing a couple of points for you to connect into, for anything in the future?

[Conor]

@TonyT yep he has. Thing is I've already got a combined sewer connection and a separate surface water discharge to the same river! Tho a connection at that side of the house will save me at least one MH and 10m of pipe.