tanneja Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 Hi all, relates a bit to a topic posted recently on here but a bit of a different ask. New joists been out in between ground and first floor. The ceiling / floor joists are timber joists with chipboard above and will be plasterboard below. At the moment ceiling below not done. Chipboard has been screwed to the joists and the chipboard joins are glued. It is creaky in areas. I had hoped to have silent experience when walking around the 1st floor with the renovations (was previously old floorboards, it was like hopscotch at night to not wake the kids). I would think it it the chipboard, not the joists, but its difficult to say what interaction / material bending is responsible for the noise. Will it be fine when underlay and carpet go down, or am I best to remedy now? I have been warned by my builder that now getting an insulation backed board like ScreedBoard 28 will be expensive and for an unknown performance benefit. Is there a more cost effective solution? Upstairs is only around 50m2 but budget is very constrained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 Not enough screws. Find the joists, go along with 60mm screws every 150mm. If they haven’t glued the joists to the boards, it will squeak ..! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 Whats the joist spacing, if you don’t have a ceiling yet I would get him to add a load of noggins and screw the hell out of it. Get your better half half to go upstairs and dance around then you can stand underneath and listen for squeaks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyshouse Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 Do boards touch wallsanywhere? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 As for screws you cannot beat these: If the boards are screwed you may be able to just replace the screws with these. Then add more as required. The clever bit is the plain shank. They drill thru the board and the main thread goes into the joist. The plain shank then sits in the drilled hole and the top threads pull the board down tight. https://www.toolstation.com/spax-wirox-t-star-plus-flooring-screw/p31871 Be sure you know where your pipes and cables are though! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 Counter batonning the ceiling will cure this 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJNewton Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 38 minutes ago, nod said: Counter batonning the ceiling will cure this As would resilient bars (I think) which I suppose is a form of counter batonning. It obviously helps with reduce noise transmission which is why I thought it worth mentioning. I learnt this having ripped my lounge ceiling down (boards and bars) and discovering a couple of joists were creaking when walked on. It turns out it was the nails used in the joist hangers - the joists were moving ever so slightly moving causing them to scrape on the metal. Replacing the nails with screws cured it, but then so would replacing the resilient bars (which I did eventually) given we didn't have the issue beforehand. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 20 minutes ago, MJNewton said: It turns out it was the nails used in the joist hangers I have always been a bit suspicious about the rules on using the really annoying short twist nails in joist hangers. They seem quite insistent on it but with some hangers where there are loads of holes and no excessive loads I am sure that even dry lining screws would work fine. The fat twist nails are really easy to remove, so I think they could and probably do work loose but that is perhaps not included in the must stick to rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanneja Posted September 25, 2020 Author Share Posted September 25, 2020 14 hours ago, Russell griffiths said: Whats the joist spacing, if you don’t have a ceiling yet I would get him to add a load of noggins and screw the hell out of it. Get your better half half to go upstairs and dance around then you can stand underneath and listen for squeaks. They are 400s apart. They don't have many noggins at the moment, just one set at mid span (span of this set is 3000mm). So more noggins is doable. Good advice to have someone else upstairs while I listen from underneath, that a fun weekend activity to plan. 14 hours ago, tonyshouse said: Do boards touch wallsanywhere? They are close but not quite butted up against the studs 15 hours ago, Onoff said: As for screws you cannot beat these: If the boards are screwed you may be able to just replace the screws with these. Then add more as required. The clever bit is the plain shank. They drill thru the board and the main thread goes into the joist. The plain shank then sits in the drilled hole and the top threads pull the board down tight. https://www.toolstation.com/spax-wirox-t-star-plus-flooring-screw/p31871 I have shown these to the builder and he is interested in them. He says he knew what they were but they were more expensive and he want with some floor purposed ones (in a cool teal colour). We can try a box of these, thanks very much for the suggestion 12 hours ago, nod said: Counter battening the ceiling will cure this We will be counter battening in areas bt didn't plan in this area to preserve the ceiling height, but if the issue is the joists, I woudl be willing to lose some height for a silent experience. Would more noggins be as effective as this, ,just more time consuming? 11 hours ago, MJNewton said: I learnt this having ripped my lounge ceiling down (boards and bars) and discovering a couple of joists were creaking when walked on. It turns out it was the nails used in the joist hangers - the joists were moving ever so slightly moving causing them to scrape on the metal. Replacing the nails with screws cured it Thankyou, I was only ever thinking about the local noise on the 1st floor rather than hearing the 1st floor from the ground floor. Maybe these are a good idea in the areas downstairs where we won't want to hear the footfall or TVs upstairs. A quick google search they don't look horribly expensive... 18 hours ago, PeterW said: Not enough screws. Find the joists, go along with 60mm screws every 150mm. If they haven’t glued the joists to the boards, it will squeak ..! There is a LOT of screws up there. And when I look, I can definitely see they have glued to the joists in places, but maybe they weren't that generous with it for some joists as there isn't any overspill (potentially no glue i suppose, I cant tell in places). If that were part of the issue, what could be done now? Try to pipe glue from the side to the joist/floor interaction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 19 minutes ago, tanneja said: I have shown these to the builder and he is interested in them. He says he knew what they were but they were more expensive and he want with some floor purposed ones (in a cool teal colour). We can try a box of these, thanks very much for the suggestion Different brand but see this video for how they work. Particularly around 2.30 in, he shows how using a "normal" screw you can actually not be pulling your floorboards tight to the joist but in fact cause a gap. I went over my 18mm tongue and groove chipboard floor upstairs with the Spax ones I linked and it cut down the squeaking a Hell of a lot. The floor having been fixed originally with hammered in angular ring nails. The floating floor I did with Spax from the start downstairs has zero squeaks. Feels like a solid floor tbh. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 35 minutes ago, Onoff said: Different brand but see this video for how they work. Particularly around 2.30 in, he shows how using a "normal" screw you can actually not be pulling your floorboards tight to the joist but in fact cause a gap. this is why I like to use screws with a plain shank (no thread in the floorboard) they do pull the wood together but are difficult to source. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 11 minutes ago, joe90 said: this is why I like to use screws with a plain shank (no thread in the floorboard) they do pull the wood together but are difficult to source. A lot to be said maybe then for proper old wood screws, pilot drill, clearance drill etc. All put in with a Yankee! ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 13 hours ago, nod said: Counter batonning the ceiling will cure this Does counterbattening take the place of noggins or is it in addition to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyshouse Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 I never used noggins except for light fittings I never screwed down a floor, never glued and never had a squeaky, well just one after the joists shrank on the way into new extension upstairs and Floor touched Old wall , easy fixed by removing a brick. Nailer and 50mm ring shanks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 3 hours ago, tonyshouse said: I never used noggins except for light fittings I never screwed down a floor, never glued and never had a squeaky, well just one after the joists shrank on the way into new extension upstairs and Floor touched Old wall , easy fixed by removing a brick. Nailer and 50mm ring shanks The force is strong with this one....... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsilonGreedy Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 If the ground floor ceiling is not fitted you should be able to pin down the source of the creeks. In addition to prior advice I would investigate the joist ends and see if one joist is floating and not taking any weight. Retrofitting a few thin shims could sort this. In my previous house a copper water pipe was the source of creeks because this had been jammed against a joist. I would not contemplate putting the ceiling up with unresolved floor creaks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 Get whoever in the house has biggest appetite for cake to walk around while the other watches from below to see if the chip board is moving out the joist is flexing. Once this is figured out then a solution should be fairly easy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyshouse Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 We always used steel band herringbone strutting pulled very tight and not touching, all double or triple joists were double or triple thickness timbers e.g. 8x4 or 8.6 etc. always built in never on hangers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanneja Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 Brining this post back from the brink as we have not managed to solve the issue. We have nogginned everywhere. Used the multi thread (with part clear thread) screws everywhere. There is still loud creaking, and some subtle floor bouncing. I have attempted the person being upstairs as I have my ear right underneath, I can't tell if the noise is from the (glued) chipboard joins, or where the chipboard is glued to the joists, or the screws. The chipboard is just 18m standard stuff. I can't see any gaps between the chipboard and floor above to shim, but i guess it could be a mm in places and I wouldn't know. Pipework going through the joists doesn't seem to be rubbing. I guess it would be considerable work to take it all out and replace with 22 or 25 mm flooring. Plastered stud walls have already been built over it, and since the staircase is in, makes the transition of FFL upstairs a complicated detail. The downstairs ceiling still not boarded so have full access from underneath. Was thinking of grinding out the board joins, seeing if that is the issue. If that solved the creak, could then noggin underneath all joins and mechanically fix the boards to those, and fill the 3mm gaps with a silicone, then perhaps overboard with maybe 6mm board of some kind if we had any concerns that the underlay and carpet doesn't do enough to eliminate the gaps. It would reduce whatever rigidity we get from the interlocking. I don't want bounce in the floor, I don't have limitless budget either. Upstairs rooms that have been boarded are only around 25m2 so not a huge area. Any help greatly appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Are the edges butt tight to the "walls" or whatever is at the edges, could it be rubbing there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanneja Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 @Onoff no they ate 10mm shy, filled now with a flexible acoustic sealant. They were squeaking before that sealant went in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanneja Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 (edited) The floor viewed from underneath. I should say, I am as sure as I can be from when I get up close, that all noise is from the centre of the floor, not the hanger ends. Edited February 24, 2021 by tanneja removal of pic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Who specified the drilling of the joists for all those pipes and wires? They're supposed to be within 0.25 - 0.4 of the span. https://www.voltimum.co.uk/articles/cutting-holes-and-notches-solid-timber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanneja Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 Thanks @Onoff I will look into it and make revisions if needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 1 minute ago, tanneja said: Thanks @Onoff I will look into it and make revisions if needed That'll be magic hole filler or new joists then! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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