Price guide

[Andy H]

On 17/09/2020 at 12:49, ZacP said:

So all of the ICF quotes are in. I've tried to standardise them as much as possible, but some have interesting notes which I'll detail below. Putting this up for others who might find it useful in deciding their supplier or working out costs, but also for any feedback or thoughts from the more experienced (that's all of you!).

 

Our build is approx 220sqm footprint and 260sqm of wall.

 

Durisol includes a 22% discount that they put on without negotiation 

Beco Walform have quoted for the 375 but say the 313 would save around £8K (inc vat) and only increase the U value to 0.165 (though the published value is 0.18) so much better value

Nudura say that a U value of 0.24 is plenty and anything more gets really expensive

Velox includes the steel that goes inside the wall.

 

I've included a price of concrete at £100+vat/cbm. This is a little on the high side, but it gives comparison.

 

None of the quotes include rebar (if required [except Velox]) - would have to wait for SE calcs. Can anyone suggest an amount (in £ or quantity) that they used on their build?

 

I know that we'll be able to reclaim the VAT on a new build but were costing things as a worst case scenario.

 

Labor to construct I'm guessing at 9 days for 1+1+me: 2 days build,  1 day pour (lower ground). 3 days build 1 day pour (upper ground). 1 day build, 1 day pour (gables, finishing off etc).

 

 

 

Hope that helps someone and thanks for your thoughts!

Thank you for this. I am at the stage of having chosen ICF as my build method but not the supplier.

 

I am surprised at the difference in concrete required between the suppliers using eps-are all concrete thicnesses the same?

[Andy H]

On 26/01/2021 at 15:39, scottishjohn said:

the advantage of woodcrete is it needs very minor bracing compared to poly types and simple stacking and only rebar around windows and door openings --no need for more in UK as we do not have earthquakes and Isotex is thinnest concrete core of them all at 120mm

Thanks for pointing this out. I have decided I am building with ICF but am undecided on whether to use woodcrete or eps. 

 

For the purpose of getting provisional budget comparisons do you know whether the amount of rebar to be used in an EPS ICF build would amount to a significant cost compared to woodcrete for a single storey building. I know ultimately I will have to use a structural engineer to specify the amount of rebar to be used but I would rather not have them run multiple calculations for different suppliers, incurring more cost.

 

Thanks

 

Andy

[Andy H]

On 17/09/2020 at 13:03, Alexphd1 said:

Personally I am a big fan of nudara (only other icf I would have seriously considered was amvic)

Could you expand on why you pick out Amvic from all the other suppliers?

 

I had chosen Nudura and paid up for their training day which is currently on hold. This is given me time to be able to reconsider ICF supplier so would welcome any comments you have re Amvic. I have placed a request for contact with them but so far they have been silent.

 

Kind regards

 

Andy

[Russell griffiths]

@scottishjohn morning John, you keep spouting on about woodcrete blocks not needing any bracing, I would suggest you get some more hands on knowledge not just from talking to the rep selling the product. 

 

My knowledge is based on having built one icf house using a poly type block. 

But  also I am currently working on two woodcrete block houses. 

one has the walls up the other is halfway up. 

Both the woodcrete blocks have needed significant bracing, the one built has some very poor walls, the one being built has a huge amount of bracing on it as it’s a struggle to keep it straight. 

 

I think people need to do their own research and not listen to the rep selling the product. 

 

if anybody tells you you don’t need bracing they are talking out of their backsides, or they are suggesting you pour a 1m strip at a time. 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Russell griffiths

[Andy H]

11 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

@scottishjohn morning John, you keep spouting on about woodcrete blocks not needing any bracing, I would suggest you get some more hands on knowledge not just from talking to the rep selling the product. 

 

My knowledge is based on having built one icf house using a poly type block. 

But  also I am currently working on two woodcrete block houses. 

one has the walls up the other is halfway up. 

Both the woodcrete blocks have needed significant bracing, the one built has some very poor walls, the one being built has a huge amount of bracing on it as it’s a struggle to keep it straight. 

 

I think people need to do their own research and not listen to the rep selling the product. 

 

if anybody tells you you don’t need bracing they are talking out of their backsides, or they are suggesting you pour a 1m strip at a time. 

Thanks for giving this information. I am considering woodcrete and one of the attractions was the lack of proping and related cost - Iooks like I will need to omit this as one of the pros for woodcrete.

 

[Mr Punter]

I have only done one ICF and that was a basement using Polarwall which uses XPS.  Did not use much bracing.  It does not use blocks but has rails that the insulations slots into.  You have an inner and outer leaf, joined together with plastic ties and the middle is filled with concrete.

 

I am not sure how it compares in price / performance but it may be worth getting a quote.

[bradders3109]

On 26/01/2021 at 12:02, NickK said:

@bradders3109

 

I’d curious how will Thermohouse stack. Haven’t seen it in person yet but really like their roof system. Did you consider Isotex system as well?

Sorry for the late reply I'm sure you understand this is a very busy time for us.

 

I haven't considered ISOTEX the systems that I'm looking at are:

 

Amvic
Durisol
velox
Nudura
Warmerwall blocks
Thermohouse
econekt (izodom)

 

I really like the Izodom (cheaper with lower U values) but can't find a BBA certificate.  Their certification appears to be through the EU and now that we've left I don't know if this is a problem.

 

Thermohouse haven't even bothered to come back to me with a quote which is concerning.  If they can't be bothered quoting for the business what will they be like if/when I need suppport.

[bradders3109]

On 26/01/2021 at 13:46, Tom said:

Interesting you say that. We are going with Nudura for our build and I questioned them why their block's U value (0.24) was worse than their competitor's (in the teens for most others it seems). I was expecting them to upsell me their thicker block but the opposite was true - strong recommendation to stick with the standard block with a U value of 0.24 as the "as built" performance of structures using this outperformed the "on paper" calculations. The payback on a thicker block would have taken several decades to materialise, if ever.

very good to hear.  The U value was one of my concerns with Nudura.  as a layman I was just thinking that Nudura was more expensive purely due to marketing in the same way that Nike are more expensive than addidas.

 

Now I'm confused and Nudura is back on the table.

[bradders3109]

On 29/01/2021 at 22:07, ianfish said:

 Interesting to see the quotes.

 

I think we all could achieve more by sharing information like this!

 

Our Isotex quote for around 100m2 was circa 10k inc VAT   and delivery which had been added at 1990 GBP to a West Mids location. 

 

I get they come from Italy but come on!

 

Be happy to hear others rates here or via meesages!

My transport costs to Norfolk have been all over everywhere:

 

Nudura £250

Warmerwall 3538

Izodom £1906.50

 

 

 

[Russell griffiths]

Everybody seams so hung up on the u value of one element of there build, yet don’t seam to grasp the fact that it is a whole load of parts of a house that you need to put together well. 

 

I have seen timberframe houses with walls with very good numbers on paper, yet when built I could see out to the sky with only the lead flashing forming any sort of airtight element. 

 

It really is about choosing a good system and building it well, you can take a standard 100mm concrete block and build it to a good standard with good insulation, or you can take a highly insulated timberframe and build it badly with gaps and joins everywhere. 

 

You need to look at a system that is robust with good detailing and good methods of construction. 

[Big Jimbo]

I agree with Russell above. Any building system can be built well or built badly.

[Russell griffiths]

Why is everybody hung up on transport costs, surely it all adds up to total product cost the time you get the product to site. 

 

Product 1 is £1000 plus £200 transport

product 2 is £200 plus £1000 transport. 

 

Same same. 

[Simon R]

11 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

You need to look at a system that is robust with good detailing and good methods of construction. 

Totally agree, we specifically paid the premium to use the Jub ICF system as there was no cutting on site and all the apertures for windows etc were properly formed. Our contractor talked us out of using their roof system, something we would reconsider if we were to do it again. It all comes down to detail.

[ianfish]

17 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

Why is everybody hung up on transport costs, surely it all adds up to total product cost the time you get the product to site. 

 

Product 1 is £1000 plus £200 transport

product 2 is £200 plus £1000 transport. 

 

Same same. 

 

I do not want to be ripped off for one...

 

Hung up or being sensible

 

 

 

 

[Russell griffiths]

10 minutes ago, ianfish said:

 

I do not want to be ripped off for one...

 

Hung up or being sensible

 

 

 

 

Why ripped off, have you any idea of the cost of moving an artic truck across the country. 

 

My windows had a £700 delivery cost, plus £700 additional for unloading and positioning on site. 

The first cost I had no choice the second one I avoided by doing it myself with a forklift. 

 

Pick the right product for the job not the one that has free delivery. 

[ianfish]

Just now, Russell griffiths said:

Why ripped off, have you any idea of the cost of moving an artic truck across the country. 

 

My windows had a £700 delivery cost, plus £700 additional for unloading and positioning on site. 

The first cost I had no choice the second one I avoided by doing it myself with a forklift. 

f suppliers 

Pick the right product for the job not the one that has free delivery. 

You seem to be seeing invisible ink.

 

I am not after free...but then a good number of merchants offer "free" delivery.

 

Pick the right product by all means. But I expect to pay a reasonable cost. And yes I do know how much artics cost thanks. 

 

 

[bradders3109]

12 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

You need to look at a system that is robust with good detailing and good methods of construction. 

absolutely and when you are confident that you are managing the details airtightness etc.  One of those details that contributes to the finished product is the U value of the walls along with the U value of the floor and the roof.

[bradders3109]

12 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

Why is everybody hung up on transport costs, surely it all adds up to total product cost the time you get the product to site. 

 

Product 1 is £1000 plus £200 transport

product 2 is £200 plus £1000 transport. 

 

Same same. 

I'm not hung up on transport costs.

 

i'm looking at the entire package and where I might be able to save money.

 

For instance if company A is charging £2000 delivery from outer London to Norfolk I might be better off hiring a 7.5 tonne wagon and collecting myself.

 

Only by viewing the various elements of the build in isolation is it possible to make the little trims and cost savings that in the end add up to a significant saving on the whole build cost.  I wish that I had a bottomless pit of money and could just crack on but I don't and every element needs to be costed and if at all possible trimmed.

 

For me this process, having established the style of the property, has three counter balancing elements:

 

Cost

Ease of build

Energy efficiency and quality of completed build

 

Look after the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves.

[scottishjohn]

On 30/01/2021 at 10:39, Russell griffiths said:

@scottishjohn morning John, you keep spouting on about woodcrete blocks not needing any bracing, I would suggest you get some more hands on knowledge not just from talking to the rep selling the product. 

 

My knowledge is based on having built one icf house using a poly type block. 

But  also I am currently working on two woodcrete block houses. 

one has the walls up the other is halfway up. 

Both the woodcrete blocks have needed significant bracing, the one built has some very poor walls, the one being built has a huge amount of bracing on it as it’s a struggle to keep it straight. 

 

I think people need to do their own research and not listen to the rep selling the product. 

 

if anybody tells you you don’t need bracing they are talking out of their backsides, or they are suggesting you pour a 1m strip at a time. 

what make of wood crete  -durisol?

 as we know that durisol width spec is variable to say the least, up to +/-5mm  so in worst case up to 10mm    and that could make more of a problem to simply brace with screwing bits of osb/ply to  joints and are suspect 

 I suspect the quality of the builder has more to do with the quality of the walls than the product

 

 the way with durisol is to decide which side is going to be flat -and build that way --you cannot get perfectly flat walls both sides with durisol -

me i would go for flat on outside 

 

 you are right I have not actually built with either -- but common sense tells me a strong form  must be a good starting point and the ability to srcew things to it anywhere you like is also a big plus and tha ability if you wish to render or plaster direct to it  and if cladding no worries where to get fixings  or where to attach brick ties if having outerskin of brick or stone  .

I have never said  NO bracing -- but its minor in comparison to poly  as its only needed at openings+ possibly corners - If you getting your bracing for free  with poly-- then ok ,

still much more chance of blow outs with poly as it is not as mechanically strong as wood crete 

If it has problem keeping straight then I would be talking to the block supplier -thats whole point of woodcrete  blocks that they dry stack and make good walls  quickly 

 you got picces of how much bracing they needed?

 

poly type are  more critical on concrete mix -too sloppy and lots of hyrdaulic pressure on lower blocks to cause blow outs.

 

 the quantity of concrete should be the same for both durisol +Isotex -- velox is thicker 

 

if not then the calcs on one or other is wrong ,as they both use 120mm core and not 150mm as most poly types + velox do 

 

 I do not think the other poly types are accurate either as they all use 150mm core -- so why the difference --that table is a estimate in  my view  - a starting point 

 as if buildings are all same size then differenec in concrete  should not be double on some systems  if it was derived from plans to get the quote 

only rebar needed for woodcrete in uk is some around window ,doors and any other opening - where you are making   re-enforced lintels -  we are not in an earthquake region 

 thats why  I say your block supplier should be doing those calcs  --not  an SE not used to working with ICF ,as they will always over spec -

 again its common sense that a one piece concrete wall will be stronger than one made from bricks/blocks  with very low strength mortar bonding them together

your block supplier should be doing all that work when you send him the plans -

 both systems can do a good job - but need to handled differently all the way through the design and build process is the conclusion I have arrived at 

 

 

 

[scottishjohn]

On 30/01/2021 at 10:53, Andy H said:

Thanks for giving this information. I am considering woodcrete and one of the attractions was the lack of proping and related cost - Iooks like I will need to omit this as one of the pros for woodcrete.

 

look closely at any icf build and even with wallbracing they  still need to make up window and door bracing frames -- wood crete will need  much less,  of it as  the block is inherently solid not flexible as poly types are

 do some more homework and do not take what anybody says as gospel -#

 

 

including me

Edited February 3, 2021 by scottishjohn

[FM2015]

One of the reasons woodcrete requires less bracing is because of the mass of what you are trying to contain.  A lot of poly versions are mass pours to create a solid wall.  Woodcrete tends to form a lattice work of columns with some horizontals.

 

Lintels therefore generally need extra bracing to take the weight and maintain shape.

 

Poly bracing should be costing about £5 per set per week, so an average house (40 props) £200 per week.a two storey house, say 5wks, £1000.  Those props will give you internal access platforms to plate height meaning you don't need external scaffold until several weeks into the build.  This should give a net saving.  Theres no option readily available to provide this saving with woodcrete.

 

Concrete quality is a fair point.  Too wet and you will have problems either in pouring or consolidation.  Specification to the concrete company is key and if it's outside of spec, send it back.  Hard for the uninitiated and they will shout but if you buy a burger from a well know brand and it's not what your ordered, you'd send it back.

 

U values and passive house standards are well intentioned but widely miss the mark in my opinion.  There are few systems which perform in the real world.  And is it worth the extra money?  In order to achieve payback in a reasonable time frame, for passive standard housing, you can never open a window.  That ruins the science experiment.

 

There are plenty of cost effective solutions for building that fall short of aspirational standards but when combined with super efficient appliances and sensible behaviour changes, the building will perform very well.

 

This is why we advise people to really understand what they are trying achieve.  6" of EPS on the outside of the wall is a gross waste of materials but from a life cycle assessment perspective, the occupier's behaviour is more significant.  

 

U values are just a way of comparing products in a standardised way but requires a significant number of assumptions and is only one method of comparison.  It is highlighting strengths and weaknesses from one perspective.  It's not the only perspective.  For example, a mass poured poly ICF is pretty much two materials throughout; concrete and EPS/XPS. Woodcrete has three materials but they don't all exist everywhere.  Does their u value apply to the wood only bit or the bit with wood, pir board and concrete or is it some sort of average?  My point is your comparing apples with oranges.  Both fruit, both good for you but totally different.

 

[SteamyTea]

On 01/10/2020 at 11:18, Mako said:

I don’t agree with Jeremy’s calculation based on Kg, 

surely you must base your calculation on Volume.

It is because you can change the shape of a 'volume' without changing the mass, this happens in corners.  The shape is important as that affects surface area, and part of the unit of thermal inertial is m².

J.m^-2.K^-1.s^-0.5

it is basically a case of working backwards from volume to mass to establish the lower and upper bounds for the calculations.

The other reason is that the majority of the mass contributes little to energy storage, whether positive or negative.  If it did, insulation would not work as well as it does.

[Haylingbilly]

Ok, for what it is worth, I built with Nudura but went a long way down the line with one of the woodcrete solutions. My issue was I couldn't find a local builder who would use the woodcrete solution, but could find 3 people who would use Nudurra. A couple of points worth mentioning - with Nudurra you can pour a much higher level than with the woodcrete blocks and with £500 odd for a concrete pump depending on which one you need there could be a significant saving there.

The engineer had completed the structural calcs with the woodcrete and had to redo 30% of the initial work to respecify for Nudura.

 

The Nudura blocks are fragile and we lost a few through damage on site - I suspect the woodcrete ones are much more robust.

The woodcrete system we looked at had an option for a floor system which in hindsight would have been a much much better solution for us that the hollowcore floor solution we used for Nudura. The woodcrete floor solution needs lots of props sure, but a small cost compared to the cost of a hollowcore floor!

Be very careful with your "quotes" from the suppliers - they are estimates - ours was out by quite a bit - 15%, which once you have purchased, the old "it was only an estimate" line was used and whilst the supplier helped, we were still out of pocket £2k mainly due to minor damage on site meaning the incorrectly specified panels not being able to be returned.  Make sure you check them line by line and know exactly what you are buying and it is what you need - it is not easy as I had 20 odd line items on my quotes of supplier specific terminology.

 

 

 

[Bitpipe]

3 hours ago, FM2015 said:

 for passive standard housing, you can never open a window.  That ruins the science experiment.

 

Have you ever lived in a passive house? That statement is clearly silly.

 

Our passive standard house (not certified but met all of the requirements) was not noticeably more expensive to build than a 'just passes BR' equivalent. The frame cost, which provided the majority of the passive compliance/performance, was about 20-25% of the overall build budget and included all internal walls and floors also. We opted for triple glazing which was not that much more expensive that double. Majority of our costs were aesthetic and lifestyle driven.

 

MVHR was a few thousand and we saved on installing any heating beyond the ground floor and bathrooms so that pretty much cancels out.

 

We open windows and doors a lot, whenever we feel like it.

 

I pay about £1/day for gas and £1.50 for electric over the year in a 400m2 house occupied by a family of 4. What is harder to monetise is living in a house that sits at a constant 20^o year round, low humidity and continually refreshed air.

[ProDave]

+1 to above.

 

The really noticable thing is on a windy day you can open 1 window or 1 door and not have a howling gale flowing through it.  Unlike a normal house where doing so would have one of the internal doors slamming shut with the through draught.

 

But why do you want to open a window in winter to let the cold out?

 

In summer we regularly sleep with the bedroom window open to hear the gentle trickle of the burn, and the owls hooting throughout the night.