Price guide

[ZacP]

@Mako 

you should read this.... 

 

[SuperJohnG]

These prices seem really cheap. I guess the costs are somewhere in the labour with ICF?. Wish I'd maybe priced ICF for a comparison to my SIPS system. 

[Mako]

On 29/09/2020 at 23:58, ZacP said:

@Mako 

you should read this.... 

 

Hi Zac, I had a read, thank you. I don’t agree with Jeremy’s calculation based on Kg, 

surely you must base your calculation on Volume.

top chart is Jeremy

second chart is justified correctly. Denser the material the better the conductivity and heat retention.

just my thoughts, common sense dictates that wood will store less energy compared to concrete/brick or steel.

 

[bradders3109]

loving this thread.

 

We have now decided to build with ICF.  We are only extending not a full build.

 

I currently have quotes from Nudura and Warmerwall.  Not too much difference except that Warmerwall include the hire of the bracing which I believe is significant.

 

Still awaiting a response from AMVIC, Thermohouse and Durisol.

 

also the Warmerwall blocks apparently have graphite infused into the EPS giving a slightly lower U value of 0.227 as opposed to Nudura 0.24.  I don't really understand U values except that lower is better but is this minor difference important?

 

Would appreciate advice from those more knowledgeable.

 

 

 

Regards

 

Mark

[A_L]

14 minutes ago, bradders3109 said:

I don't really understand U values except that lower is better but is this minor difference important?

 

Plain white EPS in this sort of application is likely to have a thermal conductivity of 0.04W/m.K and graphite EPS a conductivity of 0.032W/m.K. In more understandable terms every 32mm of graphite EPS has the same insulating effect as 40mm of standard EPS. The difference between 0.227 and 0.24 U-values is trivial

[bradders3109]

Thanks A_L that's what I needed.

[ianfish]

4 hours ago, A_L said:

 

Plain white EPS in this sort of application is likely to have a thermal conductivity of 0.04W/m.K and graphite EPS a conductivity of 0.032W/m.K. In more understandable terms every 32mm of graphite EPS has the same insulating effect as 40mm of standard EPS. The difference between 0.227 and 0.24 U-values is trivial

 

Does the EPS number make any or much difference? or is that strength?  Looking for the last few days at all the various EPS materials they differ in cost, amount.

 

Have not found a graphite eps 300 block yet they seem to be eps70 

[Russell griffiths]

Forget the u value on icf as in my opinion it’s not a fair representation of the finished product. 

 

 

[A_L]

11 hours ago, ianfish said:

Does the EPS number make any or much difference? or is that strength?

 

It is  the force (in Pascals) required to compress it by 10%. i.e. EPS 70 requires a force of 70kPA (70000) to compress it by 10% (about 7000kg/m² )

[NickK]

@bradders3109

 

I’d curious how will Thermohouse stack. Haven’t seen it in person yet but really like their roof system. Did you consider Isotex system as well?

[ianfish]

6 minutes ago, A_L said:

 

It is  the force (in Pascals) required to compress it by 10%. i.e. EPS 70 requires a force of 70kPA (70000) to compress it by 10% (about 7000kg/m² )

 

Yep I get that thanks, but practically in a domestic setting is there a reason to use eps300 over eps 200 or eps70?  or any other of the many ratings or values?

 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by ianfish
add to sentence

[markc]

4 minutes ago, ianfish said:

 

Yep I get that thanks, but practically in a domestic setting is there a reason to use eps300 over eps 200 or eps70?  

 

 

Yes, depending on the weight of the structure, contents, usage etc.

[ianfish]

4 minutes ago, markc said:

Yes, depending on the weight of the structure, contents, usage etc.

Go to be honest here.

 

I am struggling with reading up on so many materials, some things people seem to do the minimum specification and other areas they over spec?

 

All the support documents seem to imply very similar uses, with the practical examples being either residential, public buildings or industrial.

 

As an example

 

Jablite Floor Insulation and Design Loads

The Jablite Flooring Range is available in Grade 70, 100, 150, 200 and 250 grades.

For a quick rule of thumb, the following guidance about use and design loads applies:

• Jabfloor 70 is used for standard domestic loads
• Jabfloor 100 is used in offices and schools.
• Jabfloor 150 – 250 is used in heavy commercial, industrial where heavy loads from storage racking or fork-lift trucks are expected

I'm thinking the brand  in this instance is the eps rating...

Edited January 26, 2021 by ianfish

[markc]

2 minutes ago, ianfish said:

Go to be honest here.

 

I am struggling with reading up on so many materials, some things people seem to do the minimum specification and other areas they over spec?

 

All the support documents seem to imply very similar uses, with the practical examples being either residential, public buildings or industrial.

Ian (educated guess), builders struggle to keep up with the new materials, technologies and specs etc. When it comes to compressive strength of materials and floor loadings i know several "engineers" who struggle to get their heads around it.

If you have any doubts, err on the side of caution. The denser (not sure if thats a real word) EPS materials are not that much more expensive for piece of mind

[ianfish]

Just now, markc said:

Ian (educated guess), builders struggle to keep up with the new materials, technologies and specs etc. When it comes to compressive strength of materials and floor loadings i know several "engineers" who struggle to get their heads around it.

If you have any doubts, err on the side of caution. The denser (not sure if thats a real word) EPS materials are not that much more expensive for piece of mind

 

That's another issue! terminology used between materials and manufacturers hardly any consistency! which for me as trying to do as much as I can myself with help...just sets me back.

 

Without hijacking this thread, We are going to use ISOTEX for our walls. On Seeking out other input a local builder/architect/surveyor comes over disses what we had put together and then dismissed isotex as "new s*it" and on asking any questions of what materials he used he just got more base in well that's how I do it...oddly enough he did use forms of ICF but did not consider them as such.

 

I found an EPS 200 which is about a 1/3 or more cheaper than EPS 300 which could see a saving and still supposedly do more than a job for me...

[NickK]

Just out of interest, has anyone considered or even tried using basic woodcrete type blocks and then only put external wall eps on? Not sure what thickness you’d end up with, though ?

[scottishjohn]

9 minutes ago, NickK said:

Just out of interest, has anyone considered or even tried using basic woodcrete type blocks and then only put external wall eps on? Not sure what thickness you’d end up with, though ?

why would you want to??

 

please tell me why you think this is a good idea over using pre insulated woodcrete  blocks

[Tom]

5 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

Forget the u value on icf as in my opinion it’s not a fair representation of the finished product. 

 

 

Interesting you say that. We are going with Nudura for our build and I questioned them why their block's U value (0.24) was worse than their competitor's (in the teens for most others it seems). I was expecting them to upsell me their thicker block but the opposite was true - strong recommendation to stick with the standard block with a U value of 0.24 as the "as built" performance of structures using this outperformed the "on paper" calculations. The payback on a thicker block would have taken several decades to materialise, if ever.

[scottishjohn]

On 17/09/2020 at 12:49, ZacP said:

So all of the ICF quotes are in. I've tried to standardise them as much as possible, but some have interesting notes which I'll detail below. Putting this up for others who might find it useful in deciding their supplier or working out costs, but also for any feedback or thoughts from the more experienced (that's all of you!).

 

Our build is approx 220sqm footprint and 260sqm of wall.

 

Durisol includes a 22% discount that they put on without negotiation 

Beco Walform have quoted for the 375 but say the 313 would save around £8K (inc vat) and only increase the U value to 0.165 (though the published value is 0.18) so much better value

Nudura say that a U value of 0.24 is plenty and anything more gets really expensive

Velox includes the steel that goes inside the wall.

 

I've included a price of concrete at £100+vat/cbm. This is a little on the high side, but it gives comparison.

 

None of the quotes include rebar (if required [except Velox]) - would have to wait for SE calcs. Can anyone suggest an amount (in £ or quantity) that they used on their build?

 

I know that we'll be able to reclaim the VAT on a new build but were costing things as a worst case scenario.

 

Labor to construct I'm guessing at 9 days for 1+1+me: 2 days build,  1 day pour (lower ground). 3 days build 1 day pour (upper ground). 1 day build, 1 day pour (gables, finishing off etc).

 

 

 

Hope that helps someone and thanks for your thoughts!

your quotes are not comparable  on insulation values of walls.

also suspect your concrete volumes are wrong  at a quick glance  either that or wall dimensions are different on some quotes

 

[willbish]

15 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

why would you want to??

Perhaps to get rid of the thermal bridges that woodcrete blocks have..

[NickK]

19 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

why would you want to??

 

please tell me why you think this is a good idea over using pre insulated woodcrete  blocks

 

To be honest, I don't know if it is a good idea or not, hence the post :-). However, my rationale would be to reduce thermal bridging but also cost. Surely getting standard block and EPS on the outside will work out cheaper whilst achieving same u values??? (This is not accounting for extra time having to put it all on of course).

[willbish]

@NickK seems like a worthwhile avenue to explore.

It has been discussed adding extra EPS to standard EPS ICF blocks I don't see why this couldn't work with woodcrete but I'm not all that familiar with those products.

[scottishjohn]

23 minutes ago, willbish said:

@NickK seems like a worthwhile avenue to explore.

It has been discussed adding extra EPS to standard EPS ICF blocks I don't see why this couldn't work with woodcrete but I'm not all that familiar with those products.

 

It would work -not sure if it would be cheaper 

he,s not talking about adding EXTRA  insulation == but it would be the only insulation .

 so would need to be very thick .

there are some houses here that are built that way on a TF with all insulation on outside then rendered on a mesh backing  system --but that insulation is std EPS and 9" thick blocks ( at a guess)  when i passed them when they were being built ..

I would go for multiple layers staggered so no direct passage  and possible air leakage from outside to block work 

 certainly easy to fit on outside with no studs in the way -- will be virtually no less waste which you get  on normal infill of studs

 the advantage of woodcrete is it needs very minor bracing compared to poly types and simple stacking and only rebar around windows and door openings --no need for more in UK as we do not have earthquakes and Isotex is thinnest concrete core of them all at 120mm ,

 easy enough to work out costs comparing it to normal type with insulation pre packed in block 

 If you hunt u-tube you will find they do that with durisol in canada to get passiv house in very cold areas ,but std durisol block has insulation in it as well

 so yes its sort of been done already

[SeaSocks]

This may well have been asked elsewhere, and @ZacP's table is an excellenct comparison of differnt ICF types, but could anyone point me to a table comparing this to more other construction types, SIP's, rendered Block insulated cavity, rendered block with insulation and internal timber frame etc?

 

I'm trying to weigh up the different cost and u value benefits...

 

Many thanks in advance peeps!

[ianfish]

On 17/09/2020 at 12:49, ZacP said:

 

 

Our build is approx 220sqm footprint and 260sqm of wall.

 

Labor to construct I'm guessing at 9 days for 1+1+me: 2 days build,  1 day pour (lower ground). 3 days build 1 day pour (upper ground). 1 day build, 1 day pour (gables, finishing off etc).

 

 

 

Hope that helps someone and thanks for your thoughts!

 Interesting to see the quotes.

 

I think we all could achieve more by sharing information like this!

 

Our Isotex quote for around 100m2 was circa 10k inc VAT   and delivery which had been added at 1990 GBP to a West Mids location. 

 

I get they come from Italy but come on!

 

Be happy to hear others rates here or via meesages!