Radiators required upstairs?

[DachaidhDubh]

We were planning to have no radiators upstairs with UFH downstairs, and just towel rails in the upstairs bathrooms. But our architect has told us that unless we're passive house standard (which we won't be), we have to have heat sources in all living spaces in the house.

 

Is this right does anyone know? (We're in Scotland) And if so, would saying that we're putting a post-heater in the MVHR (which we weren't planning to do) deal with the problem?

[Conor]

What's your targeted build U values, glazing and airtightness?

 

We're building to passive standards but will have UFH in bathrooms and master bedroom only upstairs. Reason for UFH in the masterbedroom is that it has a fair bit of south facing glass and we want to be able to use the UFH loop for cooling in the summer. It costs buggerall to install so would be a missed opportunity.

 

Post heater in MVHR will only delivery a very small amount of heat energy. Somebody on here said it's a max of 2kW.

[DachaidhDubh]

We're putting in MVHR, so under 3 for airtightness I believe is the target.

 

We've been told we have to have heat in all living rooms upstairs, which is what is causing the stramash. The idea of the post heater was purely to get around the 'requirement' for heat supply.

 

Interesting that you're saying UFH is cheap to fit upstairs. I have been told it would add significant cost, although that wasn't quantified.

[jamieled]

We're in Scotland, just West of Inverness. We don't have any heat sources upstairs with the exception of a towel rail in the bathroom although it's only 40w or something like that. I wasn't aware of any rule about needing to have a heat source in every room. I have had the bedrooms wired in case we find we need upstairs heaters but no plans to fit them unless we think they're really needed. In saying all this, we don't yet have our completion certificate, so may still be pulled up on something.

 

1 hour ago, DachaidhDubh said:

But our architect has told us that unless we're passive house standard (which we won't be), we have to have heat sources in all living spaces in the house

 

I don't think there are special rules for passive houses in this regards, the only possibility might be if your SAP suggests you might need a high heat input which can't be delivered with the number of heaters you propose?

 

I think there are a few folk on here in Scotland who don't have much heating upstairs, so I might be tempted to question the source of your Architects information.

[joe90]

I’m not in Scotland but I have no heating upstairs (apart from towel rads in bathrooms) and it was not questioned. I followed passive fundamentals but not qualified or certificated.

[the_r_sole]

It's not a reg I've heard of before but I'm always learning!

[ProDave]

Another in Scotland just north of Inverness.  No heating upstairs other than UFH in the bathrooms.  Been through 2 winters without needing heating in the bedrooms. 

 

I did install cables to heater points in each bedroom so we could fit a small panel heater, but unused and cable not connected at either end yet.

[Nick]

1 hour ago, DachaidhDubh said:

We're putting in MVHR, so under 3 for airtightness I believe is the target.

 

We've been told we have to have heat in all living rooms upstairs, which is what is causing the stramash. The idea of the post heater was purely to get around the 'requirement' for heat supply.

 

Interesting that you're saying UFH is cheap to fit upstairs. I have been told it would add significant cost, although that wasn't quantified.

 

Would also be interested to hear how you're fitting wet UFH upstairs Conor. What's your first floor construction / heating method and is your manifold also going upstairs?

[the_r_sole]

8 minutes ago, Nick said:

 

Would also be interested to hear how you're fitting wet UFH upstairs Conor. What's your first floor construction / heating method and is your manifold also going upstairs?

 

I'm doing one at the moment with Pozi joists, 18mm ply deck, 30mm biscuit screed with ufh pipes and 22mm flooring over...

[ProDave]

This is our UFH downstairs, but that is a suspended timber floor so no different to doing the same upstairs.

 

that's OSB over the joists (just to support the biscuit mix)

Battens following the joist lines.

Buiscuit mix screed between the battens

Then Oak engineered flooring went over the top.

 

Insulation was between the joists.

 

An alternative is to use aluminium spreader plates.

[joth]

This maybe an overzealous interpretation of Part L

https://www.intergasheating.co.uk/app/uploads/2018/06/Guidance-on-Boiler-Plus-BEIS.pdf

 

That states every house must have 2 independent temp controlled zones, and the guidance is these are often "living area" (downstairs) and "sleeping areas" (i.e. upstairs)

 

FWIW we had a lot of conflicting advice on if we needed upstairs heating or not (and we are going PH certified, all be it EnerPHit). So we comprimsed on putting fused spurs into each bedroom to allow a possible future infrared panel heater if needed, and plumbing into the loft to allow a possible future fancoil unit if needed

 

[Nick]

13 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

 

I'm doing one at the moment with Pozi joists, 18mm ply deck, 30mm biscuit screed with ufh pipes and 22mm flooring over...

 

Cheers, are you insulating between the joists? Did you look into any of the dry boards with routed slots for the pipework you can get as an alternative to the biscuit screed?

 

Am I'm also planning a pozi joist floor but would rather avoid screed if I can get away with a dry finish.

[nod]

2 hours ago, DachaidhDubh said:

We were planning to have no radiators upstairs with UFH downstairs, and just towel rails in the upstairs bathrooms. But our architect has told us that unless we're passive house standard (which we won't be), we have to have heat sources in all living spaces in the house.

 

Is this right does anyone know? (We're in Scotland) And if so, would saying that we're putting a post-heater in the MVHR (which we weren't planning to do) deal with the problem?

We are not Passive  House 

Traditional Build 

Very well insulated UFH

18 months since moving in 

We have never used the first floor radiators Or the three very expensive towel rails in each bathroom 

[Conor]

30 minutes ago, Nick said:

 

Would also be interested to hear how you're fitting wet UFH upstairs Conor. What's your first floor construction / heating method and is your manifold also going upstairs?

 

150mm hollowcore slabs, 25mm insulation boards, UFH clipped to boards, 50mm liquid screed.

 

I've a service void coming up the middle of the building. so the two loops (one for wetrooms, one for bedroom). Manifold etc will be in the basement. 5KW ASHP via a buffer tank. It's a passive house so the loops will be minimal. I'm only planning on three zones - basement, master bedroom (first floor) and all other areas (main living area on ground floor)

[Fly100]

A friend of mine did this, he is currently installing Rads upstairs with hold in his nice new ceiling. Id install them, if only small ones but still do the work.

[Moonshine]

How well insulated do you think you need to be to not require radiators upstairs?

[Ralph]

Are you planning to apply for RHI? If you are I think the rule is that you need to have the system designed by an accredited installer. If that installer models your system and says that you need radiators upstairs then you need them to comply with the rules. 

 

We did not want radiators upstairs and had conflicting advice on whether we would need them or not. Finally the heating engineer modeled the house and reckoned we need a few. We have vaulted ceilings in the upstairs sitting room and everything is quite open.

 

The last thing I wanted was to spend all this money on a house and then be cold in the winter for the fairly minimal cost of a few radiators. 

 

We also had a wood burner in the plans and decided not to put it in. I'm going back on forth on that decision.

 

 

[Moonshine]

22 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Are you planning to apply for RHI

 

I have not heard of this scheme, is it applicable to new builds?

 

Edit, it looks as though new builds are eligible if they are custom built, i better start looking into this scheme, anyone able to give me a quick overview of the application / design process?

Edited October 6, 2020 by Moonshine

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, Moonshine said:

Edit, it looks as though new builds are eligible if they are custom built, i better start looking into this scheme, anyone able to give me a quick overview of the application / design process?

To be honest I left it to my installer. It looks like over the 7 years I will have most of the cost of my heating system paid for.

[Carrerahill]

On 09/09/2020 at 14:19, DachaidhDubh said:

We were planning to have no radiators upstairs with UFH downstairs, and just towel rails in the upstairs bathrooms. But our architect has told us that unless we're passive house standard (which we won't be), we have to have heat sources in all living spaces in the house.

 

Is this right does anyone know? (We're in Scotland) And if so, would saying that we're putting a post-heater in the MVHR (which we weren't planning to do) deal with the problem?

I've just had a quick look through section 6.3 of the Scottish building handbook and there is no stipulation like this.

 

The only stipulation is that the system should be energy efficient and capable of control for optimal efficiency. (Note it says "capable" thus the nonsense boiler installers give you about how you NEED controls is just not true).

 

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Carrerahill

[DachaidhDubh]

2 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

I've just had a quick look through section 6.3 of the Scottish building handbook and there is no stipulation like this.

 

The only stipulation is that the system should be energy efficient and capable of control for optimal efficiency. (Note it says "capable" thus the nonsense boiler installers give you about how you NEED controls is just not true).

We came to the same conclusion so we've submitted the building drawings without the upstairs rads. We'll see what they come back with.

[Carrerahill]

1 hour ago, DachaidhDubh said:

We came to the same conclusion so we've submitted the building drawings without the upstairs rads. We'll see what they come back with.

You will be grand. If they moan just say UFH - then when they come to inspect say it's under the floor, just warming and leave some pipes and a TRV sticking out a floor in a cupboard!

Edited October 6, 2020 by Carrerahill

[joth]

8 hours ago, Moonshine said:

 

I have not heard of this scheme, is it applicable to new builds?

 

Edit, it looks as though new builds are eligible if they are custom built, i better start looking into this scheme, anyone able to give me a quick overview of the application / design process?

Getting RHI requires the install to be MCS certified.

MCS includes an industry warranty, that the system has been designed to be suitable for the home. Thus it's on the installer to design a system that they can stand behind as suitable, and they may determine that more emitters are needed e.g. upstairs, before they'd sign it off as meeting MCS requirements. This of course also gives a lot of room for them to force items that aren't needed, but shopping around for 3-4 quotes should address that.

  

[Adsibob]

On 09/09/2020 at 17:17, nod said:

We are not Passive  House 

Traditional Build 

Very well insulated UFH

18 months since moving in 

We have never used the first floor radiators Or the three very expensive towel rails in each bathroom 

Sounds impressive! I'm trying to achieve something similar in my renovation project of a 1930s semi. I'm extending most of the rear of the property and coverting the loft, so will benefit from high levels of insulation in those walls and the loft, but the front and side of the house will still have a 1930s wall with no cavity. How did you insulate your UFH and house generally?

[ProDave]

8 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

Sounds impressive! I'm trying to achieve something similar in my renovation project of a 1930s semi. I'm extending most of the rear of the property and coverting the loft, so will benefit from high levels of insulation in those walls and the loft, but the front and side of the house will still have a 1930s wall with no cavity. How did you insulate your UFH and house generally?

Having lived in a 1930's solid wall house, I know they leak heat like it is going out of fashion.

 

I would be very surprised if you can get a 1930's house good enough to not need upstairs heating without adding internal or external insulation to all the existing external walls.