Extension- Last Stuff.

[Roundtuit]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

It's whether it can be deemed correctly installed, or not, is the contentious thing. Everyone says not.. & just I say it is, ok. But if Vaillant are saying it is correctly installded too, now leak fixed.. then it's like a 50/50 thing, we just agree to disagree (not throw insults like children).

 Is this another 'balancegate' misunderstanding?  The hardware you have there may be correctly installed - fixed to walls, piped up, with no leaks.  The conclusion everyone is coming to however, in the absence of hard data, is that it may all be the incorrect sized kit for the job.  Hence the  "install" (the whole job) is incorrect.

 

The Vailant guys, I suspect, will have checked for pressure, leaks, and the way their unit is plumbed in etc, but not your heat loss calculations and radiator specs.

[zoothorn]

8 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Please do that only 1 radiator on test and we can start to make progress.

 

Ok so my kitchen = 3603 btu's. Is that what you mean?

[zoothorn]

8 minutes ago, Roundtuit said:

 Is this another 'balancegate' misunderstanding?  The hardware you have there may be correctly installed - fixed to walls, piped up, with no leaks.  The conclusion everyone is coming to however, in the absence of hard data, is that it may all be the incorrect sized kit for the job.  Hence the  "install" (the whole job) is incorrect.

 

The Vailant guys, I suspect, will have checked for pressure, leaks, and the way their unit is plumbed in etc, but not your heat loss calculations and radiator specs.

 

Hi Roundtuit,

 

thanks for that explanation- much easier when it's spelled out like this. Yes I do get the gist that the Vaillant chaps have a different job not to do with the rads choice for rooms. And I get the gist clearly the consensus is that the kit isn't correctly sized. And I am resolute in saying, even so that I believe it to be correct enough, if not pin-point perfect, IE rad sizes for the spaces they're in.

 

But I will do the BTU calcs for the kitchen here. It's known, due to constraints in what they could fit in, that it -is- undersized. I said this all along. But even so, not by the margin the cold is suggesting (& therefore in the consensus view the rad's size/ the install is the culprit).

 

It's 13.5*C in here now (desired is 18.5*C) so achieving 0.7*C of heat at it's best efforts up from 12.5*C at 8am -might- suggest a bingo! there you go zooter you tooter! told you! moment IF..... I had a rad the size of a postage stamp in here.

[zoothorn]

@ProDave So my kitchen BTU = 3603.

 

My rad is a double-sized, fins in the middle standard 100mm D type, dims: 600 x 700mm.

[ProDave]

14 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Ok so my kitchen = 3603 btu's. Is that what you mean?

No.

 

I thought my suggestion was clear.  I think part of the problem is we are making what we think are clear suggestions and you are simply not understanding them.

 

I am trying to estblish if the reason the radiators are cool is because the heat pump is not set up properly, or because it is under powered and simply cannot cope.  Knowing that might offer a way forward.

 

So what I am suggesting is you go round and turn off the lockshield valves on all of the radiators except one.  I suggest you leave the one in your cold bedroom as the only one left on.  then leave the heating system on exactly as it was and let us know the flow and return temperatures on that one radiator that is still left on.

 

Two outcomes.

 

That radiator gets piping hot and your cold bedroom becomes warm.  That would suggest the ASHP is set up correctly but is simply under sized and cannot cope with all the radiators.

 

Other outcome is that one radiator that is left on is still only luke warm, which suggests the problem is settings within the ASHP as it damned well should be able to get one radiator piping hot.

[Declan52]

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

@ProDave So my kitchen BTU = 3603.

 

My rad is a double-sized, fins in the middle standard 100mm D type, dims: 600 x 700mm.

Can you explain how you got these figures so there isn't another mistake made at the start.

[zoothorn]

8 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

Can you explain how you got these figures so there isn't another mistake made at the start.

I used the box things, put in my room dims, window sizes, i put in no insulation under floor and in walls ( 1 cm in walls but lets call that zero, i mean im not gonna tick yes unless a box for 1 cm) 100mm+ in loft above. 600 x 700mm double rad.

 

i cant get any of that wrong!

[zoothorn]

15 minutes ago, ProDave said:

No.

 

I thought my suggestion was clear.  I think part of the problem is we are making what we think are clear suggestions and you are simply not understanding them.

 

I am trying to estblish if the reason the radiators are cool is because the heat pump is not set up properly, or because it is under powered and simply cannot cope.  Knowing that might offer a way forward.

 

So what I am suggesting is you go round and turn off the lockshield valves on all of the radiators except one.  I suggest you leave the one in your cold bedroom as the only one left on.  then leave the heating system on exactly as it was and let us know the flow and return temperatures on that one radiator that is still left on.

 

Two outcomes.

 

That radiator gets piping hot and your cold bedroom becomes warm.  That would suggest the ASHP is set up correctly but is simply under sized and cannot cope with all the radiators.

 

Other outcome is that one radiator that is left on is still only luke warm, which suggests the problem is settings within the ASHP as it damned well should be able to get one radiator piping hot.

Ok thanks, understood but if Ive had countless engineer visits, one room gets nicely warm, the rads tend to at least feel similarly hot, then is it not surely highly likely the heat pump is set up correctly, despite my mfr issues remaining?

 

Can the ashp run ok turning all rads off?

[zoothorn]

22 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Two outcomes.

 

That radiator gets piping hot and your cold bedroom becomes warm.  That would suggest the ASHP is set up correctly but is simply under sized and cannot cope with all the radiators.

 

 

 
Ok understand the 1 st bit of this! but why if it gets piping hot.. as i expect only that it will.. would it suggest any info other than of this radiator? It gets all the rads hot all 8 x on as its doing, so far that is, that just for now by feeling their temps by hand that they feel hot.. so then how can the suggestion be anything other than its perfectly capable of running the rads, & is doing just that?

 

 

 

 

[MJNewton]

39 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

@ProDave So my kitchen BTU = 3603.

 

My rad is a double-sized, fins in the middle standard 100mm D type, dims: 600 x 700mm.

 

What type of radiator in reference to the following?

 

 

And are the dimensions width x height?

[zoothorn]

3 hours ago, TonyT said:

Stop going on about it, you were told in November about bleeding radiators and you replied to that person, so 2 months ago!!!!!

 

 

Im not.. everyone else is, Onoff started it sir. Jesush. I can only imagine i said back then no evidence suggests air, no cold top of rad etc, what i said here hoping the idea would bog off. But others joined Onoff, of course, so i had to reply or 'you ignor advice'.
 

And now im told im 'going on about it'!! Cant win!

[zoothorn]

7 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

What type of radiator in reference to the following?

 

 

And are the dimensions width x height?

Hi Mjn.

 

type 22- sorry i thought only one double type.. and w600 x h700. Thx

[Roundtuit]

Has anyone else noticed that you never see Jeremy Harris and Zoot in the room at the same time?   Just putting it out there....?

[ProDave]

14 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 
Ok understand the 1 st bit of this! but why if it gets piping hot.. as i expect only that it will.. would it suggest any info other than of this radiator? It gets all the rads hot all 8 x on as its doing, so far that is, that just for now by feeling their temps by hand that they feel hot.. so then how can the suggestion be anything other than its perfectly capable of running the rads, & is doing just that?

 

 

 

 

At the moment they are NOT getting hot, they are getting luke warm and not able to put enough heat into the house.

 

I am trying to establish if the reason for them being luke warm is because the ASHP is set up wrong, or if there are more radiators than it can cope with.

 

Do it by measurement, for ages you have been telling us they are "hot" which is why people have been questioning the insulation etc, but when you got the thermometers and told us they were barely 35 degrees, that is NOT "hot" so because of that wrong information we may have been barking up the wrong tree.

[Pocster]

@zoothorn can you not understand that after 56 pages no one is really the wiser about what the issue is ?

We know your house is cold .

Everyone is using educated guesses to attempt to understand WHY !

Draw a (expletive deleted)ing plan of your house . Put dimensions on . Draw the radiators in each room with dimensions. Take photos . ANYTHING to give evidence of what you have !

Personally I think this thread should be locked - because it’s a pointless joke . So much help offered ; yet all refuted.

[Pocster]

3 minutes ago, Roundtuit said:

Has anyone else noticed that you never see Jeremy Harris and Zoot in the room at the same time?   Just putting it out there....?

Jesus ! Jeremy you’ve gone down hill mate ?

[MJNewton]

12 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Hi Mjn.

 

type 22- sorry i thought only one double type.. and w600 x h700. Thx

 

Thanks.

 

So, with a calculated heating requirement of 3603 BTU that's 1056 W.

 

Looking at the fairly common Stelrad Elite radiator tables, the output of a 600mm W x 700H Type 22 is 1207 W. However, that assumes an average ((flow - return / 2)) radiator temperature of 70C. With only 40C you are derating the output by 0.304 thus giving 366W so it will indeed struggle to heat the room. Furthermore, your heat loss calculator may only have factored in heat loss through the materials and not air changes thus the heat requirement will be much more than stated.

 

TL;DR: the radiator is undersized for such a low flow temperature.

Edited January 22, 2021 by MJNewton

[zoothorn]

4 minutes ago, ProDave said:

At the moment they are NOT getting hot, they are getting luke warm and not able to put enough heat into the house.

 

I am trying to establish if the reason for them being luke warm is because the ASHP is set up wrong, or if there are more radiators than it can cope with.

 

Do it by measurement, for ages you have been telling us they are "hot" which is why people have been questioning the insulation etc, but when you got the thermometers and told us they were barely 35 degrees, that is NOT "hot" so because of that wrong information we may have been barking up the wrong tree.

Ok ok. Understand that. In fact thats the first reply ive understood in ages. Apart from being called a c@@@. I understood that.

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

Thanks.

 

So, with a calculated heating requirement of 3603 BTU that's 1056 W.

 

Looking at Stelrad's Elite radiator tables, the ouutput of a 600mm W x 700H Type 22 is 1207 W. However, that assumes an average ((flow - return / 2)) radiator temperature of 70C. With only 40C you are derating the output by 0.304 thus giving 366W so it will indeed struggle to heat the room. Furthermore, your heat loss calculator may only have factored in heat loss through the materials and not air changes thus the heat requirement will be much more than stated.

 

Conclusion: the radiator is undersized for such a low flow temperature.

Ok thanks for that. Im not sure if its a linear relationship between 1207 and 366.. but see the obvious, that 40* seems too low, although whether im meant to have bang on 55* on one side or both of my rad im not sure.

 

Again i ask, surely there must be some loss expected from the box thingy to a rad?

 

I'll go try measuring @ the box thingy now, assuming its running high in 4th gear as it were when i measure it, not 2nd gear..

[MJNewton]

5 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Im not sure if its a linear relationship between 1207 and 366

 

I don't understand what you mean, but it doesn't matter. Just accept the figures.

 

Quote

Again i ask, surely there must be some loss expected from the box thingy to a rad?

 

Again we answer; no - the heat loss from the pipe is negligible (resulting in a degree or two over a fairly long length if that) and even that which does occur is still heat into the house.

Edited January 22, 2021 by MJNewton

[PeterW]

7 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Ok thanks for that. Im not sure if its a linear relationship between 1207 and 366..

It is. It’s exactly linear due to the nature of thermodynamics so if you give me the flow temperature either side of the rad I can give you probably 2 decimal places the output. 

[Pocster]

To save any more suicides ...

 

Tomorrow’s lotto numbers are :

 

7 , 14 , 18 , 25 , 42 , 43 

 

and the bonus is ....

 

9

[zoothorn]

26 minutes ago, Roundtuit said:

Has anyone else noticed that you never see Jeremy Harris and Zoot in the room at the same time?   Just putting it out there....?

 

oh yes you do, settle down children- Jeremy has been very helpful on many occasions,my kitchen build and many things, & with his vox ac30 & piloting things that interested me (my grandpa one of the Amy Johnson pioneer aviators C1932) etc.

 

Actually I had thought he was most probably dead to be quite honest.

[joe90]

1 minute ago, zoothorn said:

Actually I had thought he was most probably dead to be quite honest.

No, he is alive and well, moved onto pastures new. (Mores the pity).

[zoothorn]

9 minutes ago, PeterW said:

It is. It’s exactly linear due to the nature of thermodynamics so if you give me the flow temperature either side of the rad I can give you probably 2 decimal places the output. 

 

Bugger. Ok 1st I -knew- you 'd be back for some more, & 2ndly I have my do-da's attatched on your RHS pair of pipes & heating on since 6.30am.. but rads gone into a slumber. So in 10mins & I'll get the flow temp @ the box thingy. Maybe, if its in full swing that is..

 

thanks Peter.