Extension- Last Stuff.

[ProDave]

5 hours ago, jfb said:

Is it not a regulation to have an accessible 3 pole isolator? If so how do you keep tenants from it?

I keep asking and nobody yet has stated the regulation that says a fan isolator has to be fitted.  I have never found it and neither has anybody else.  It is "just what we do"

 

My belief is that it is a miss interpretation of an industrial regulation regarding local isolation for fans, which makes sense so the person changing a fan belt on a 3 HP motor driven fan does not lose his arm when it starts up under remote control.  It is totally irrelevant to a small domestic fan that at worst would give you a little nip if you put your finger in the rotating blades. Any sensible risk assesment would come to that conclusion.  And  anyone says you need local isolation to replace a broken bathroom fan with a permanent L better start fitting a 3 pole isolator next to a light fitting wired loop at light and so has a permanent L at the light fitting.

 

Until someone quotes me the reg, I will continue not fitting them in rental properties.  I have lost count how many times a tenant complains of damp and mould in a bathroom and they have turned the fan off because it was noisy.  Tenants can be their own worst enemy.

[Onoff]

 

[Onoff]

17 minutes ago, pocster said:

you are behind @Onoff

 

 

 

 

[Pocster]

1 minute ago, Onoff said:

 

 

 

 

A dangerous position to be ...

[zoothorn]

32 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

But you also poo pooed my request that you collect some data.  You just seem to think that it can only be your climate, so impossible to change.

You have the kits to collect data, it costs nothing, and may reveal that, even though, your internal temperatures are low, they are not low enough to cause a serious condensation issue.  Which you suggest that you have another problem that needs hunting down.

BUT YOU WILL JUST NOT DO IT

 

Im reluctant to because ST, I believe there -has- to be more to my atmoshere aspects than a rh number suggests. To be honest there just has to be with the unusual physical aspects I find here.. which tbh I think you don't believe even exist/ that I'm just making up.

 

If Gav's very complicated condensation page of info link suggests it is -far far- from a straightforward subject, one number telling me how wrong I am.. seems to give, perhaps, part of the answer only.

 

Part of the answer. I have been suggesting all along, that it -has- to be alot more of a complicated subject, from the things I find, I see, I breath every day I know is very, very unusual, from anywhere else in the world I have been. Ive suggested, as others here believe, that our forests might play a factor. I don't know. But I am sure it is -not- as simple as "72% .. 18*C !! there you are idiot: facts!!" as I feel you're itching to fire at me to proove me wrong.

 

 

 

You will argue, no numbers are numbers, & I'll argue back..

[Declan52]

What about something as simple as this. You can install it in your ceiling or wall what ever is the easiest. When the air gets that damp the fan comes on and extracts it. Although in your house it might run most of the time but would get rid of the damp air which is causing the condensation and mould. 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/EnviroVent-Extractor-Shutter-Adjustable-Humidity/dp/B00E7VACSI/ref=mp_s_a_1_14?dchild=1&keywords=humidity+fan&qid=1612536608&sr=8-14

 

[Onoff]

https://medium.com/@thehumidifiermentor/diy-dehumidifier-alternatives-moisture-absorbers-you-can-make-b47d448b52f3

[SteamyTea]

59 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

unusual physical aspects I find here.. which tbh I think you don't believe even exist/ that I'm just making up.

I believe you have a damp/condensation problem.

What I do not understand, is your total reluctance to help yourself when help is offered.

I bet there a a number of people on here that could turn up at your place and isolate the problems pretty quickly.  But you would not allow that to happen.

So ask yourself why you are posting up problems that you then do not want to investigate the cause of. 

[Onoff]

3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

the problem

 

Singular.

[joe90]

1 minute ago, Onoff said:

 

Singular.

Plural !

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Singular.

Baby steps are needed.

[MJNewton]

4 hours ago, ProDave said:

I keep asking and nobody yet has stated the regulation that says a fan isolator has to be fitted.  I have never found it and neither has anybody else.  It is "just what we do"

 

It could fall under the general requirement of:

 

134.1.1 ERECTION AND INITIAL VERIFICATION OF ELECTRICAL INSTALLATIONS Good workmanship by one or more skilled or instructed persons and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. The installation of electrical equipment shall take account of manufacturers' instructions.

 

If the manufacturers' instructions say that you should fit an isolator then I suppose it's just down to you to justify not taking them into account? The circumstances might dictate the signifance of having to do so eg there might need to be a particularly strong reason if someone broke their neck falling off a stepladder because they were trying to clean/unblock the fan in the dark as their only means of isolation was via the circuit breaker of the lighting circuit it was attached to. 

Edited February 5, 2021 by MJNewton

[TonyT]

Fit one at the consumer unit then....?

 

I wouldn’t have one visible after doing to a lot of detail, it would be in a cupboard, in the loft at the DB.

 

[ProDave]

44 minutes ago, TonyT said:

Fit one at the consumer unit then....?

 

I wouldn’t have one visible after doing to a lot of detail, it would be in a cupboard, in the loft at the DB.

 

I am surprised nobody makes a fish key 3 pole isolator, that would do it.

 

I can find a 2 pole fish key switch that would disconnect L and Switched L but if the manufacturer says "3 pole"?  No worse that turning off the MCB, that still leaves N connected.

[zoothorn]

16 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

I believe you have a damp/condensation problem.

What I do not understand, is your total reluctance to help yourself when help is offered.

I bet there a a number of people on here that could turn up at your place and isolate the problems pretty quickly.  But you would not allow that to happen.

So ask yourself why you are posting up problems that you then do not want to investigate the cause of. 

 

Hi ST. I'm absolutely trying to ID the cause of it, but instead of answering on the cause (after reading the experts' page kindly linked to by Gav, it tells me the cause is perhaps a far trickier subject & quite possibly many factors are contributing to it)... the replies have been only on the -solution- instead. And, ok I've considered the solution advice of 1) introduce more heat, 2) introduce a dehumidifier. Eg:

 

Right. I only see this condensation only overnight, in two rooms. New build bedroom, some warmth retained overnight (say 14*). And Kitchen, no warmth overnight (say 11*). No damp in either rooms at all. Advice is run a fan heater & a dehumidifier. Next morning I get a bit of condensation only. Fantastic- job done in both rooms. Solution found- you guys were right!! erm hang on a tick..

 

.. bit of a problem. I haven't been able to sleep because of the noise, & its uncomfortably hot. And the cost of running a fan & dehumidifier overnight is prohibitively costly. And the cost of a dehumidifier when Im almost broke is n/a too.

 

So the conclusion is I cannot opt for this solution in practise regardless of whether it is feasable in theory. So I therefore in reality, presently, so far with what has been advised.. cannot do anything about this condensation. So why keep harranging me about it??!! & what is giving a number on a guage when there's no condensation anyway over this last milder week going to be of any use too-?

[MJNewton]

10 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

what is giving a number on a guage when there's no condensation anyway over this last milder week going to be of any use too-?

 

It gives you a baseline. When the condensation returns you can compare the readings and see what's different - higher RH? Lower internal temp? Lower external temp? 

[SteamyTea]

It also allows elimination of where the water is coming from.  If the external temperature and RH levels are high, then that may be where the condensation is coming from, but if they are low, it might mean that the condensation is coming from inside the house i.e. extension still 'drying out', leaking pipe, broken drain, inadequate bathroom/kitchen air extraction.

Water can get in all sorts of places.  Took me 4 years to find out why my window was leaking, it was a crack in the render several metres from the window.

 

When you ventilate you do not have to have a window fully open, it is not all, or nothing.  So you can ventilate without loosing all the heat.  So you can heat your bedroom at night, and ventilate, without getting too hot. I often wonder why people close bedroom windows when they go to bed, then open them up in the morning.  Ventilate when you are in the room, not after you leave.  Stop the problem before it is a problem.

 

Understanding the physics of condensation is not really difficult, but we have Psychrometric charts to help. And formula to establish at what temperature the water vapour turns to liquid, and how much water there will be.  Without knowing where you are starting from, you cannot establish if the problem is external or internal.  This is why measurements are important.  Measuring does not, in itself, cure the problem, it just helps decision making.  Refusing to take any measurements means you are just hoping to stumble on the reasons, and there are, when it comes to atmospheric science, an infinite number of permutations.

Here is a Psychrometric chart, notice that the lines are not straight, so even a small change in temperature can cause problems.

 

[Onoff]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

after reading the experts' page kindly linked to by Gav

 

@Gav_P's link or mine?

[Gav_P]

7 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

@Gav_P's link or mine?

Not me gov 

[zoothorn]

I had to take a timeout! getting flustered (as you may have gathered- apologies!) & it dawning on me perhaps too complicated to answer.

 

@SteamyTea appreciate that explanation: I'd not thought of the extention still 'drying' & of course Ive no clue how long this takes, but over a year? since all major stuff built that is. I mean logic says 'no it's dry by now' but I admit it's maybe a 'last resort' possibility.

 

All I know is this: I get -some- mild rising damp in the main shell/ old stone big room the 3 extentions built onto. A bit musty smell & few areas of black mould, low on walls. BUT no sill water & only a tiny bit of black mould on frames (2 small windows). No concern.

 

2x beds above (70's extention 1): small black mould on frames/ no sill water. Much bigger windows. No concern

 

Kitchen/ bathroom (80's extension 2) ground floor: small frame mould, very lg kitchen window gets sill water. Little concern

 

So in 4.5 yrs these all all minor things, rarely need to wipe, no inclination even to add dehumidifiers. It is liveable-with & "normal for here".

 

---

 

But the new top room's so different. In 4 months built, I've FAR more black mould than all of the other rooms combined in 4.5 yrs (you even see it getting bigger by day!), sill water running off, mould eating the pB away already. It seems way above even "normal to expect for here" .

So, if I get this much so fast with all the modern materials used, all dry, 20x the PIR vs rest of the house combined.. there's one HUGE glaring question. Why. Why specifically this much, here, after building it -I think- up to a decent std.

 

((Not simply 'why does condensation form'.. this is offtrack to my Q; which innevitably leads to well-intended replies of 'how to attack black mould'.. even further off track to my Q; leading to 'how to attack damp in a house'.. a mile off track to my Q)).

 

But it might not be simple to answer now is all I can think. It seems I need a 'condensation specialist' to answer it I don't know.

 

thanks tho- zH.

[markc]

This is sounding more like an atmospheric problem .I.E lack of circulation and air changes rather than just heating.

Any major building work takes time to dry out, but it needs ventilation to get the damp out of the building. 

My cold damp cellar became a hot damp cellar with heating, unsealed it and added forced ventilation and its now bone dry with so signs of mould or the damp musty smell.

[SteamyTea]

36 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

last resort

But one very easy to test with a damp meter.

[Onoff]

44 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

All I know is this: I get -some- mild rising damp in the main shell/ old stone big room the 3 extentions built onto. A bit musty smell & few areas of black mould, low on walls. BUT no sill water & only a tiny bit of black mould on frames (2 small windows). No concern.

 

Where do you think that damp air goes then? Some of it gets carried by (relatively) warm air upward to your nice new, sealed (relatively speaking) room where you add to it exhaling etc.

 

No concern? I think you'll find it is!

[MJNewton]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

So, if I get this much so fast with all the modern materials used, all dry, 20x the PIR vs rest of the house combined.. there's one HUGE glaring question. Why. Why specifically this much, here, after building it -I think- up to a decent std.

 

That could well be it - the 'decent standard' may well have resulted in less natural background ventilation in that room.

 

Quote

Not simply 'why does condensation form'.. this is offtrack to my Q

 

Completely disagree with you their Zoot. Behind that question lies the answer to your problem. There's no magic going on here - it's just scientific laws being followed and whilst you might want to believe they don't apply to your part of the world I'm afraid there's no escaping the fact that they do.

Edited February 8, 2021 by MJNewton

[dangti6]

Something like this will do you:

 

DeLonghi 0148512201 De'Longhi DEX212F Dehumidifier, White, 300 W, 12 liters: Amazon.co.uk: Kitchen & Home

 

You don't need 3. Move it around every now and then.