Extension- Last Stuff.

[Onoff]

Balance: noun

 

2.

a situation in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions.

 

So you proportion the available heat according to the variables of the room; how quickly it warms up, loses heat and so on. You do this via the lockshield valves on the rads. 

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Onoff

[Pocster]

1 hour ago, joe90 said:

Yup, join the club, the list is growing .

Oi @joe90 you took a vow of silence!!

[joe90]

12 minutes ago, pocster said:

Oi @joe90 you took a vow of silence!!

Only to zoot !

[ToughButterCup]

I'd like to say thanks to all of you who continue to contribute to this thread. 

Now retired, I have many years  experience of running online programs in professional contexts.  This thread offers challenges which would cause many to disengage. I'm inspired by the extended kindness and generosity shown here.

BH is a good place to be .

[Gone West]

14 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Otherwise in normal context its two english words together without chance of being misinterpreted

wot like 'Thermal Mass' whoops.

[jfb]

13 hours ago, zoothorn said:

No, sorry, you dont understand Declan.

 

I was under the sole impression, because 'balance something' means a parity of something in english.... that my rads were balanced because they were all a similar temp. Logical. Logical. Logical.

 

They were not balanced, only because these two words, in plummerry world & here only, for some inexplicable reason................... do not in fact mean parity.

Zoot - I can understand your misunderstanding of the phrase 'balance the radiators' since it is open to misinterpretation.

What I can't understand is how you react once it became clear that you didn't understand it right - if I realized I did not understand something I would, as Declan suggested, do a quick google search and do a little work myself to find out what it meant. If after doing that you still don't understand sure go ahead and ask for an explanation here. Some things are more complicated to make sense of but I think after a little research in your own time (minutes only of it) you would have understood. All too often you expect someone here to explain things to you when you could be doing some of the leg work yourself.

 

Rant over!

 

So - have you found out if the radiator valves in the warm rooms are fully open?

[ToughButterCup]

4 hours ago, jfb said:

...

do a little work [your] myself to find out

...

 

Zoot: that's the root of your frustration. Over dependance on just a few people's help.  At the moment you appear to rely on the generosity of BH too much.  Have a look around, waste some time on YT researching the same topics....

[zoothorn]

On 16/01/2021 at 10:02, jfb said:

Zoot - I can understand your misunderstanding of the phrase 'balance the radiators' since it is open to misinterpretation.

What I can't understand is how you react once it became clear that you didn't understand it right - if I realized I did not understand something I would, as Declan suggested, do a quick google search and do a little work myself to find out what it meant. If after doing that you still don't understand sure go ahead and ask for an explanation here. Some things are more complicated to make sense of but I think after a little research in your own time (minutes only of it) you would have understood. All too often you expect someone here to explain things to you when you could be doing some of the leg work yourself.

 

Rant over!

 

So - have you found out if the radiator valves in the warm rooms are fully open?

 

It wasn't neccessary to 'do a quick search to find out the meaning'!!!! Jesushchrist.

 

No again "Balance radiators" is -not- open to interpretation if normal use of the two words are used. In plumming context, for some reason, logic is thrown out & the word balance is not referring to radiators at all, but to the room temps instead! therefore: it is an illogical term.

 

Once it was established that this was so, that balance must have nothing to do with radiators [the exercise is: create an imbalance in rads, to achieve a balance in room temps: so the term is plain & simple 100% stupidity].. but room temperatures instead..

 

once this emerged as reason for my (totally reasonable) total confusion...

 

I don't need to then go & find out what "to balance radiators" means!! I've found out- the hard way!! The odd thing to me is why couldn't someone have just said " 'balance rads'.. dont take it literally, think of it as 'balancing room temps' & you'll understand principle of the idea".

 

(Why didn't someone say? very likely simply bc the term is known to them, so they were confused & irritated why I kept saying my rads afaict were balanced if all the same temp = culminating in alot of unwarranted antipathy, mini pack mentality, & aggression at me).

 

Such misinterpretation is to be expected on a forum using communication via a box of text; it is it's achilles heel. That is all on the matter.

 

 

[zoothorn]

As to the exercise itself, finally on track..

 

I don't see how in my case here, with such a large discrepency in room temps (6*C coldest room to warmest, with all the rads 'open' afaict.. if by feeling they are all similarly hot that's a reasonable assumption to make) how I can balance the room temps without excessively 'upping' the source of the heat.

 

I mean I can understand the exercise completey, if a "normal house" let's say discrepency of maybe 2*C is found coldest to hottest rooms: then the source need be upped within a normal scope. Mine? its already running flat-out afaik @ 55* flow temp, far higher than its default setting.

 

My point is: I can easily do the exercise, balance my room temps (with help how- I'm quite sure) by adjusting lockshield valves one rad to the next etc, finally ramping my source up to run at 9,0000 rpm (as it were) to achieve 21*C in all my rooms: but surely this is completely unwise & the thing will blow up. As Ive said: my house is -not- normal. It is stupidly fkn cold (& with a modern extention on complicating things --temps-- to balance).

 

Thanks zH

[MJNewton]

Start with balancing the radiators, not the room temperatures. Only once you've ensured you are getting the maximum heat output from each radiator can you then begin to explore why different rooms are (still) at different temperatures (and it'll likely be down to inappropriate radiator sizes, but let's take one step at a time as we haven't really begun yet because of all the backchat and disputing what you're being told). 

[zoothorn]

Also fixing my hinges to my door: I see various positions of the 'barrel' (I dont know what its called, but the centre section with the moving parts in) either on the edge of the door, or just off it, or a bit further out.

 

Where should I position this bit?

 

Huge delay on this job- no fixings with hinges, so alot of trial & error getting screws/ not sure if right even now.

[joe90]

 

 

47 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

No again "Balance radiators" is -not- open to interpretation if normal use of the two words are used. In plumming context, for some reason, logic is thrown out & the word balance is not referring to radiators at all, but to the room temps instead! therefore: it is an illogical term.

 

I have refrained from replying so far, but against my better judgment I am going to give my view........balancing radiators is a correct use of the words......hear me out.......because of the length of pipework, bends etc in a central heating system the radiators nearest the boiler or producer of heat will get hottest the quickest, the radiators furthest from the boiler will get hotter later (if at all!!,), therefore balancing the radiators is a method of restricting the flow to the nearest radiators to push hot water to the furthest (and the ones in between at varying levels). THIS IS BALANCING THE RADIATORS.

 

Now, the amount of heat given in each room is dictated by the size of radiator and during planning/design, the amount of insulation, or not, windows, outside walls is calculated (if this is done properly ?). 
 

Now the max temp in each room (if the above is done properly)is controlled by thermostatic radiator valves, when the room is up to temp it restricts the water flow to that radiator.

 

end of lesson........

[jfb]

So , third time lucky - have you checked if the rad valves on the warmer rooms are fully open?

[zoothorn]

13 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

Start with balancing the radiators, not the room temperatures. Only once you've ensured you are getting the maximum heat output from each radiator can you then begin to explore why different rooms are (still) at different temperatures (and it'll likely be down to inappropriate radiator sizes, but let's take one step at a time as we haven't really begun yet because of all the backchat and disputing what you're being told). 

 

Understand step1 is to get a parity in rad temps/ get them all established as fully open (And here Id imagine, is temporarlily, briefly & the only-flamin-do-diddly-time the radiators will be balanced one to the next!!).

 

I understand now that the -last step, the whole point- is to get a balance in room temps, not a balance in radiators whatsoever.

 

Thanks MJN.

 

[[And special thanks to Gav_P: who hugely kindly sent me 4x pipe temp thermometres. Anyone who wants to borrow: I can send on]]

 

 

[zoothorn]

8 minutes ago, jfb said:

So , third time lucky - have you checked if the rad valves on the warmer rooms are fully open?

 

I have yet to find out how to jump into step 1 > I'm about to. If it needs plummewry tools.. then I need to buy 1st.

 

But before I've asked a Q about my 6*C difference.. the implications of this.. & whether the whole exercise isn't made kaput if A) I have this huge room temp discrepency, & if B) I already -afaik- have a very high 55* flow temp setting, & only 2 of 8 rooms achieving decent warmth.

 

I just want to know the exercise isn't pointless.. unless I ramp my source up to no.11, blow it up.. along with mrs. miggins at no.73.

 

thx

[Pocster]

1 hour ago, joe90 said:

 

 

 

I have refrained from replying so far, but against my better judgment I am going to give my view........balancing radiators is a correct use of the words......hear me out.......because of the length of pipework, bends etc in a central heating system the radiators nearest the boiler or producer of heat will get hottest the quickest, the radiators furthest from the boiler will get hotter later (if at all!!,), therefore balancing the radiators is a method of restricting the flow to the nearest radiators to push hot water to the furthest (and the ones in between at varying levels). THIS IS BALANCING THE RADIATORS.

 

Now, the amount of heat given in each room is dictated by the size of radiator and during planning/design, the amount of insulation, or not, windows, outside walls is calculated (if this is done properly ?). 
 

Now the max temp in each room (if the above is done properly)is controlled by thermostatic radiator valves, when the room is up to temp it restricts the water flow to that radiator.

 

end of lesson........

Shhhhhhhhhhhh ?

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, joe90 said:

 

 

 

I have refrained from replying so far, but against my better judgment I am going to give my view........balancing radiators is a correct use of the words......hear me out.......because of the length of pipework, bends etc in a central heating system the radiators nearest the boiler or producer of heat will get hottest the quickest, the radiators furthest from the boiler will get hotter later (if at all!!,), therefore balancing the radiators is a method of restricting the flow to the nearest radiators to push hot water to the furthest (and the ones in between at varying levels). THIS IS BALANCING THE RADIATORS.

 

Now, the amount of heat given in each room is dictated by the size of radiator and during planning/design, the amount of insulation, or not, windows, outside walls is calculated (if this is done properly ?). 
 

Now the max temp in each room (if the above is done properly)is controlled by thermostatic radiator valves, when the room is up to temp it restricts the water flow to that radiator.

 

end of lesson........

Joe,
This implies to me you do at least understand why and how I have misinterpreted this term, even if you are not prepared to say (I think also true of most too preferring to club together, instead of seeing my pov only bc it's unpopular to do so). Anyway..

 

Thanks for this further explanation of the basics. Ok its clearer you explaining this shifting, but also adds more confusion. You are here explaining how radiator temps can actually be balanced after all by shifting etc. Fine. But, if it will not/ cannot/ ever be of any use in my house (due to the huge 6* coldest to the warmest room temps) then I can conceive only of the following of being of use: not a similarity whatsoever in radiator temps (this will be useless, is what I have now) but only, only, only a very large inbalance in rad temps could possibly ever result in evenness in room temps. 
 

Also my end of the line rad, is not the coldest as you suggest is normal, but the warmest, so pushing more heat to this rad would do the opposite of what's needed (yet another opposite/ the confusion never ceases for me).
 

Perhaps because my house is so unusually cold -plus - a new extention added vastly different to most of old cold house, that,  contrary to all normal houses where a semblance of parity in room rad temps is the norm & just 'a bit of shifting heat from rad to rad is all that's needed' to achieve optimum balance.. here perhaps normally-similar radiator temps, or without question same rad temps, are totally useless to be of any possible consideration.

 

Thanks zoot.

 

 

[joe90]

3 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Thanks for this further explanation of the basics.

Your welcome

4 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Also my end of the line rad, is not the coldest as you suggest is normal

It is normal if all lock shield valve are fully open.

5 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

but the warmest,

So I would suggest your installers “balanced “ the system (badly) when it was installed

6 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Perhaps because my house is so unusually cold

 

7 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

ever be of any use in my house

Only because it was not designed properly 

8 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

even if you are not prepared to say

I just did!!!

8 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I think also true of most too preferring to club together, instead of seeing my pov only bc it's unpopular to do so).

We are not clubbing together, we are just fed up of banging our heads against a brick wall with you arguing every point! If you want help then listen to people who know more than you do!.

[MJNewton]

Now that you've got the pipe thermometers, what are the flow and return temperatures of each radiator when the ASHP is running flat out? (Turn the room stat up to max - you really don't want it cutting out whilst doing this) Also, what's the flow and return temperature at the ASHP? 

Edited January 19, 2021 by MJNewton

[zoothorn]

16 hours ago, joe90 said:

Your welcome

It is normal if all lock shield valve are fully open.

So I would suggest your installers “balanced “ the system (badly) when it was installed

 

Only because it was not designed properly 

I just did!!!

We are not clubbing together, we are just fed up of banging our heads against a brick wall with you arguing every point! If you want help then listen to people who know more than you do!.

I have listened, to everything, please don't assume that I haven't/ that I don't.

 

It is only bc I do not understand, even with replies, that the info is not sinking in. Tbh it still doesn't. If I had one of you here, saying the same things but i could see/ read expressions... I likely would have grasped the basics of this long ago. It seems, poosibly, that I still simply do not understand what on earth this exercise is for/ what is the goal/ why mine as they are cannot be deemed balanced.

 

I had thought 1 st they are highly likely balanced as is ( the rads) bc they all seem the same temp, the same time coming on, the same simultaneous aspect to coming on (none obviously lagging behind in heat appearing). It seemed logical, from all these similarities, to conclude they must be in balance, regardless of their size I cannot alter, and that their temp must be the only thing that can change/ therefore be the " currency" of the balance exercise.

 

Then it was hollered at me NO!! Etc etc reply after reply. So, if not... then the only logical thing, to me then, must be that the word balance must be relative to something other than the rads' temp being in balance & the only possible thing then: the room temps. As this is the ultimate facet of the rads function, to alter the rooms' temp by their input, I was resolute in thinking the term was 'wrong' & balance radiators as an exercise - had- to be referring to ultimately balancing room temps.

 

Yesterday, mulling over your spanner in the works explanation of "trv's" being the way room temps can easily be regulated, altho i do not have trv's (more yet mild confusion, as why would you mention them then?) plus you saying that actually 'balancing rads' WAS correct as an expression after all- I tried to reevaluate the whole shebang. I read, I listened. I was so brain fugged by now I put huge dollop of ginger paste in my cauliflower cheese sauce not garlic paste & I concluded that after all, now right back to sq 1.. I haven't the foggiest idea of what is to balance, what the goal is, why my rads cannot be deemed in balance just as they are if they're all coming on the same... right back to sq 1. I do not know my ass from my elbow, or maybe I do, I haven't a clue of anything.

 

My cheesy dinner was an abomination. Like my understanding of all this. If you said that my cheesy dinner was, in fact actually perfectly ok... I wouldn't be surprised at all tbh.

[dangti6]

Your anger and constant frustration is not healthy. I'd hope you are not sat typing in the manner which you often come across. There's jest within parts so hopefully not.

 

It's a case of give and take when you rely on people trying to help you. If you are vague, unclear or misleading in your explanation and when questioned are unable to respond without challenging them aggressively, the quality of subsequent information is going to muddy the waters further as peoples efforts will reduce when they see previous attempts to help have been partially ignored or disputed without reason. 

 

If you cannot explain because you understand, take photos. If you don't understand what you are being asked to clarify, say so and be polite and appreciative.

 

Help people to help you. You'll get out what you put in. 

 

There's so much fluff in this thread that I could start now saying have you done this or that, but it's probably been asked and shrugged off so people perhaps assume it's not worth the lip service.

 

One thing I can see helping you is for this thread to go stale and fall off the activity list and you coming back and engaging with a fresh mind and clear answers to questions asked throughout to engage people. Bullet pointed, so it's clear what's been tried and covered so ideas aren't repeated. People with experience may see areas they perhaps otherwise assumed you'd tried when suggested before that perhaps you didn't pick up on, or simply didn't think was relevant for whatever reason. At the moment it just looks like you are winding yourself up arguing the toss of what balancing radiators entails and losing focus.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

Ok. I need to ask one simple Q, get a reply. Right back to sq 1.

 

If off the shelf rads have lockshields open, my team of spotty trainees each putting a rad in then doing bets on their phones.. is it not reasonable to think that because i also seem to find temp similarity in the rads plus similarity in their timings coming on/ going of..

 

is it not reasonable to assume that 1) my spotty herberts highly likely just left the rads as they are, not fiddled with lockshields ( cos its work & they wanna do their phones)..

 

and so 2 ) it is highly likely that the radiator lockshields, are all open?

 

 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

@dangti6 I am far from aggressive. Im defeated by this, confused by this, frustrated by this.

 

And there will likely never have been any human, in all our 2 million year existence, & Id put alot of money on this.. who has been aggressive whilst talking about cauliflower cheese.

[SteamyTea]

52 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

who has been aggressive whilst talking about cauliflower cheese.

You not got children then.

[MJNewton]

Zoot, did you miss this?

  

19 hours ago, MJNewton said:

Now that you've got the pipe thermometers, what are the flow and return temperatures of each radiator when the ASHP is running flat out? (Turn the room stat up to max - you really don't want it cutting out whilst doing this) Also, what's the flow and return temperature at the ASHP? 

 

If not, and you just don't want to do it (for whatever reason), let me know and I'll stop asking you to do it.