Fitting a Key Safe - Best Place

[Ferdinand]

I am fitting a keysafe so that a) the cleaner can get in and b) there is a key in case mum loses her key.

Two questions:

 

1 - What do you think about siting a keysafe. I can see 2 principles

 

a - Make it not obvious so that it can't be found easily by people wanting ro break in.

b - Make it somewhere you look every time you leave so that if it has been tampered with it is obvious.

 

2 - Is there anything that can be put into a hole bofore a Rawl Plug to make it more difficult to lever out? 

 

What do members think?

 

Ferdinand

 

[curlewhouse]

What about not using rawl plugs and using anchor bolts instead? (or shield bolts as they are more secure than rawl plugs) I've got my gun cabinets secured with them and you can quite literally swing off them and they'll not budge! Remember even if someone levers a keysafe off, they've still got to get into it. I see them right beside the doors in some places and they don't seem to have an issue, but if you hid it well enough, then needing to see it each time in case of tampering shouldn't really be necessary.

[AliG]

Not exactly what you were asking but-

 

Have you thought of using some kind of electronic key where you can issue temporary keys to people. I have looked into this a bit, but am not quite sure yet which of the various systems is the best. It is relatively new technology.

 

Edit: Spent a bit of time researching. The August smart lock looks interesting, but the reviews suggest it is not 100% reliable which a normal lock is. It may not be time yet for this technology.

Edited December 30, 2016 by AliG

[ProDave]

A lot of holiday rentals here use a key safe, just give the tenant the number. Most are by the back door.

 

Why not give the cleaner her own key, and hide mum's spare key somewhere away from the house? i.e. not under the doormat or plant pot by the door.

 

[jamiehamy]

Put it on the neighbours gatepost :-) I'm half serious - I've got one at our flat outside our door. With hindsight,  I should have put it at the bottom of the close with no marking - then anyone who managed to get it off,  and into it,  would have to try quite a few doors first,  deterrent enough. 

 

I'll end up fitting one somewhere at the new place - probably resin bolt it into the concrete wall at the drive.  

[Tennentslager]

Every one I have seen is by the door the key opens. They are fairly unobtrusive and as you will know easy to operate (otherwise they will confuse care staff or the householder who has lost their key and may have some cognitive difficulty).

I think if they want in, they will get in...this has been discussed before. In my limited knowledge however house breaking is pretty much non existent in Glasgow nowadays. But I've nothing to base this on other than pub talk...or rather the lack of it?

[TerryE]

22 hours ago, Tennentslager said:

Every one I have seen is by the door the key opens.

 

+1 to that. Just use a decent safe and decent anchors.  We fitted one for my parents when they became dependent on the daily carers visiting, and like it so much that we bought one for our own front door.  If you think about it, most are positioned so that they are only visible to house callers. In our case it has a discrete cover and when I've mentioned it to friends who visit regularly, they usually say what key safe?  It only has to be more secure than the alternative ways of breaking in (like using a typical barrel lock on your doors).

[PeterW]

Anyone ever had a query from an insurance company about a key safe ..?? I know they're always looking for ways not to pay up so if the key box was broken into and the key used to enter the house would it be covered..??

 

I know when we had one for my grandparents the key only got you inside the porch and there was an emergency call button in there. 

 

[TerryE]

Just remember that if a thief uses a hidden key to get in, then you can forget your insurance.  There are only so many places to hide a key; thieves know most of them and none are approved by insurers!  Decent key safes are approved by most insurers, but a jam jar or your £30 eBay version probably isn't.

[Ferdinand]

Thanks for the comments.

From the top

 

@curlewhouse

I have used 8mm Rawlplugs flagged as Heavy Duty. Drilled into brick. I *might* add a bead of hard setting sealant round the edge to make it slightly more difficult. IMO anchor bolts would be overkill.

 

@AliG

Thanks for your research. I think the issue with electronic keylocks etc for me is that a new door or work to the door gets involved, and it is still possible to lose the card. The Sugust one seems to not be compatible with multipoint and perhaps upvc. There are combination products such as the Yale, but I am not convinced yet.

 

@ProDave

The spare key option loses feasibility once one gets into a number of callers. Potentially we will have cleaner, nurse, LA checkupper etc.

 

@jamiehamy

Hmmm. Could work.

 

@Tennentslager

In the end I have gone with by the doorway, but only visible once you enter the porch. We actually had 3 houses down the road broken into last new year; as a No Through Road it is very quiet and only slightly lit, despite being a former country lane close to the town centre. A month ago our immediate neighbour (while house up for sale) had their bay window lead stolen.

 

@PeterW, @TerryE

I went for *this* one from Screwfix, which is the high end of their range at £39.99:

http://www.screwfix.com/p/master-lock-reinforced-combination-key-safe/58460?kpid=58460

 

If it went, swapping out the lock barrels (we are keyed alike on our main external doors) could be done in 15 minutes.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by Ferdinand

[Nickfromwales]

+1 to going by the doorway. 

PIR light ( bright one ) and they're less likely to be hammering, chiselling or grinding in full view. I can never understand anyone putting it out of sight / rear etc as scrotes can then work away at it out of sight. 

I pointed this out to one customer who moved it the next day. 

[newhome]

Sorry to bump up an old thread but I found this as I am considering fitting a key safe. I rang my insurance company (Halifax) and they confirmed that I would still be covered if someone broke into the key safe as it counts as forceable entry. She said they were popular if you have a carer or a cleaner for example. If someone accesses the safe without forcing it then I imagine you won’t be covered so be careful who you give the code to. 

 

I asked if I needed a specific type and she said ‘the safer the better’ but there is no standard it needs to comply with. She has also put a note on my policy that I have contacted them to inform them that I will have a key safe so my advice is to always tell your insurance company as they don’t all have the same requirements. 

[Jeremy Harris]

I fitted our key safe during the build, primarily to give contractors a way to get in if they arrived on site before I did.  Every time a team of contractors left, I changed the combination.  I sited the key safe well away from the doors and house, in a location that would be hard to accidentally come across (it's pretty well hidden).  Fixing the thing down in a super strong way doesn't matter, as no one is likely to go to the hassle of crowbarring it off a wall just to take it away and grind it open, IMHO. 

 

Our insurer had no problem with it (I did have to declare it once), and it is very handy to be able to give someone you trust a combination to be able to get into your house.  They aren't cheap, though, if you want one with reasonable security.  The first one I bought was deeply flawed, for example, in that it didn't matter what order you entered the combination, it still opened, plus it didn't allow repeat numbers in any combination.  For example, if the combination was set to 1234, then it would open on 4321, 2314, 4231, etc.  One of the contractors found this out so I swapped it for a (lot) more expensive one.

 

Finally, I'd suggest not putting a key safe where any thief would be likely to look for a spare key (like in a meter cabinet, for example).  Ours is easy to get at, but no one would be able to find it quickly without being given directions as to where it is, and for most purposes I think that's probably a good idea..

[newhome]

I will put it round the back as I want it to open the back door. Haven’t decided where yet. 6 digits would be better and I will look for one where the order of the numbers is important. 

[jack]

We stayed in a holiday unit last year that used one of these (one of the most common units you see, with a very well known brand name and rotary dial code).

 

As we were packing up to leave, we learned that my younger son had had a bit of a play with the key safe and accidentally changed the code before shutting it. After trying for a few minutes to open it with various combinations near the old one, I did an internet search to see how easy they were to get into.

 

I was surprised to learn that a sliver of aluminium from a drink can and 30 seconds was all that was needed for me to get in on my first attempt. I reckon that with practice you could be in within 10 seconds.
 

I spent a bit of time looking for higher security versions after this, but wasn't convinced about any of the options I could find.

 

Personally, when we get around to this, I'll likely conceal a hardened, key-lockable version somewhere well out of sight in the back garden, and then put the key to that and the garden gate in a code-lockable one near the front door. It's only likely to be used in emergencies, as we have good friends and family nearby who keep spare keys anyway.

[lizzie]

I have installed a key safe, its well hidden you would have to go some to find it.  Must get round to putting a key in it!

[newhome]

2 minutes ago, lizzie said:

I have installed a key safe, its well hidden you would have to go some to find it.  Must get round to putting a key in it!

 

So presumably it’s not attached to the house? Thinking where else I could put one ... ?

[lizzie]

38 minutes ago, newhome said:

 

So presumably it’s not attached to the house? Thinking where else I could put one ... ?

No its away from the house but still within our plot. ............public forum so not putting location here. pm you.

[Jeremy Harris]

Hiding a key is probably as good as a key safe, as long as it's in a  very unlikely place to find by accident  (i.e. not under a mat, flower pot, rock etc near the door). 

 

Many years ago I had a magnetic key safe that held a spare car key.  It was just a small box with a sliding lid and a strong magnet that could be stuck somewhere under the car, in case you locked yourself out of the car with the keys inside (something that's pretty much been overtaken by technology, now, but happened to me more than once with a car I had that had a self-locking tailgate - no latch, had to be opened with the key).

 

I've been toying with the idea of removing my old key safe (despite the promises that it was corrosion resistant it wasn't) and instead having a hidden key location instead.  In practical terms I'm sure it would be every bit as secure as a key safe, perhaps more so, as there would be nothing to advertise that there was a key outside the house.

 

[Dreadnaught]

2 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Hiding a key is probably as good as a key safe

 

Perhaps a key safe, empty, as a honey trap for thieves and the key hidden elsewhere?

[newhome]

@lizzie has a good idea. A key safe that’s very difficult to locate and when they break into it, it’s empty ?

[Guest Alphonsox]

2 hours ago, jack said:

I spent a bit of time looking for higher security versions after this, but wasn't convinced about any of the options I could find.

 

Personally, when we get around to this, I'll likely conceal a hardened, key-lockable version somewhere well out of sight in the back garden, and then put the key to that and the garden gate in a code-lockable one near the front door. It's only likely to be used in emergencies, as we have good friends and family nearby who keep spare keys anyway.

 

Been looking at this recently the only one that seems to meet the "Secure by Design" specs is this one.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Key-Safe-Mounted-Outdoor-Storage/dp/B0091CYMDE

 

Whether you make the box visible depends on what you want it for. My mother has a personal alarm that hangs around her neck and lets her call a Care company for help in the case of a fall. The Care company obviously requires a key to get into the house in case of emergency. This is the one recommended by many such companies for secure key storage. Police "Crime prevention" recommend such boxes should not be visible by a casual observer from the road but should be easily visible and accessible by the home owner. The idea being that you do notice if someone has prized the box of the wall to extract the key at their leisure. Placement by the backdoor is typical.

 

Personally I have a key hidden in a concealed location to avoid having to break into the house (again) if I get locked out - Last time involved a house brick and the demise of a window. It turned out to be depressingly easy to break in.

[jack]

1 minute ago, Alphonsox said:

Been looking at this recently the only one that seems to meet the "Secure by Design" specs is this one.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Key-Safe-Mounted-Outdoor-Storage/dp/B0091CYMDE

 

That was the best one I saw. There are a few under different brand names that look familiar, from memory. Not sure if they actually contain the same "guts".

 

2 minutes ago, Alphonsox said:

Personally I have a key hidden in a concealed location to avoid having to break into the house (again) if I get locked out - Last time involved a house brick and the demise of a window. It turned out to be depressingly easy to break in.

 

I had to break into the property we were renting when we locked ourselves out. Climbed from a wheelie bin onto the flat roof over the kitchen, then used a screwdriver to lever open the PVC window to a bedroom enough to get in a bit of bent steel and turn the lever to open. In within 30 seconds!  The takeaway was that even upstairs windows should be deadlocked, although I suspect that's of far less importance if you have decent wooden windows.

[Alexphd1]

Maybe a bit more expensive but I was eyeing up a hard wired hormann/garador keypad opener wired to the garage door. 

http://www.ukgaragedoorspares.co.uk/garage-door-wired-keypads/hormann-wired-keypads

[TerryE]

I've got mine to the right of the front door in plane sight, but also in clear shot of a security camera; one of these: https://keysafe.co.uk/products/key-safes/c500-keysafe.html

 

Yes, someone could take a sledge hammer and angle grinder to it to open the safe, but they could also do the same to one of your doors or windows.  A sufficiently determined thief can always gain entry.  They question is how long are they going to take and how much damage are they going to do in the process.  IMO, in general thieves act rationally: if the effort needed and possibility of detection are sufficiently high, then it is a lot easier to try elsewhere.

https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwj8_O7OnIvdAhXtve0KHXkwCzoYABAHGgJkZw&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAESEeD2Z8RXsozFnRcRcv15K5ET&sig=AOD64_3ix_HWSWaiKje9LV-F_V2jtJa0LA&ctype=5&q=&ved=0ahUKEwiCuufOnIvdAhUiM8AKHR7dBxAQ9aACCDQ&a

Edited August 26, 2018 by TerryE
Fix typo