Concrete pour in heavy rain.

[zoothorn]

6 minutes ago, Thedreamer said:

 

Prehaps read over the thread from the start and look at the advice/reassurance that members have kindly taken the time to provide to you.

 

You may note that a few members have been more 'charming' the more this has gone on for.

 

Actually you posted before on friday, & were helpful- oh hang on its monday.. & you're the total opposite.

 

If you can't lend any help, just why waste time with such negative posts. I mean what's the point, trying to impress others-?

Edited October 14, 2019 by zoothorn

[Thedreamer]

4 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

FFs go refrain from posting anything again will you/ ignored. useless drivel. I cant stand your type.

 

Keep up the moaning and dramas you will be ignored on here.

 

All the best for the rest of the build. 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

22 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

With respect, most of what you have written here does not reflect such a rosey situation. It may be how it's portrayed / worded by you, but there is some writing that's on the wall here I'm afraid.

Next time there is a kettle brewed maybe ask #2 to sit alone with you, away from the crowd, and discuss 'next steps' to your OWN satisfaction. You need to slow the pace between client & contractor here, and ensure you retain a voice. A loud, polite but firm voice. It sounds as if there is more momentum than clarity here. I thought you were going to have a heart attack over your concrete pour!!!!!! That wasn't in ANY humour.

 

 

@Carrerahill @PeterW too.. thanks for thought.

 

All points taken & understood. I know I need to step up & say xyz firmly. But this 2nd chap is not approachable in this way. I mentioned 'maybe' the floor's lower than expected? Today he got his rule out & agreed, & a bit sheepishly that "I have gone a bit deeper" by 80mm he says (actually I think 180mm, min). And then he says of course "so you need a path round, block up a retaining wall" (to keep adjacent now higher ground at bay). So this extra step down, as I thought, will cause hassle & expense to rejig things to suit it.

 

I shouldn't be taking on the cost of this, but if argue in terms of a 'mistake' made by 2nd-in-C, I just know not only him.. but builder no.1 will shut up shop & walk off the job. I cannot have this, or deal with the stress of it. I have to compromise somehow. Ive already said "at least you're not too shallow.. so maybe done me a favour" to appease him & we're good with each other. But any compromise from him? (IE quickly whip up the block retaining wall).. I think fkn no way/ forget it. But this idea is only solution.

 

I'm not happy about this compromise by me, but if I gain extra H in the lower room.. I'll be ok swallowing a little extra cost & I keep these 2 happy. But not alot extra.

[PeterW]

You could use a concrete slab on edge to hold back that hedge - cheap and cheerful 

[Onoff]

Bottom line is there is no agreed proper drawing with levels stated. There's very little to work to other than that fag packet sketch. 

 

You reckon there was about a foot of concrete poured for the footings?

 

Concrete should have been poured to the height of pegs banged in with the level marked.

 

A foot doesn't sound deep enough to me. Again depth of footings should be on the drawing.

 

Who wins if the trench isn't as deep as it should be? Less digging, less time, less diesel. Not you.

 

Who wins if there's less concrete? You might be paying for Xm3 of concrete but they've only supplied Ym3 etc. Again not you.

 

And how do you know the BCO isn't their mate etc.

 

You've made your own bed I'm afraid.

 

In all honesty there's two storey builds still standing built hundreds of years ago on footings less than a foot deep if at all. Loads of compacted hardcore and a slab poured should allay your fears over the soil from the side of the house eroding.

 

You'll keep whinging, it'll get done somehow. 

 

See if the BCO is happy (tomorrow?) and raise your concerns with him.

 

 

 

 

[jack]

4 hours ago, zoothorn said:

I shouldn't be taking on the cost of this, but if argue in terms of a 'mistake' made by 2nd-in-C, I just know not only him.. but builder no.1 will shut up shop & walk off the job.

 

Respectfully, this contradicts everything you've said to date. The main guy is apparently a fantastic, highly regarded local builder, but you expect him to walk off the job if you point out that an error has been made by his guy? I find those positions difficult to reconcile.

 

I just can't comprehend why you won't have a conversation with the builder. It doesn't need to be nasty or provocative. You just need to say that you want to be sure that what's being built is what's on the plans, and that you can't understand how what's currently there will give you that result. Tell him that you know you don't know what you're talking about and just need a bit of help from him to understand. If he's half the builder you say he is, he should be happy to explain. If he won't, then that's a screaming red flag in my opinion, whatever other stories you may have heard about him.

 

4 hours ago, zoothorn said:

I'm not happy about this compromise by me, but if I gain extra H in the lower room.. I'll be ok swallowing a little extra cost & I keep these 2 happy. But not alot extra.

 

Again, why are you compromising if they've made an error? Keeping the builder happy isn't your job as a client. Your responsibility is paying them for doing the agreed work - that's it.

 

More generally, errors happen ALL THE TIME in building. I doubt there's a self-builder on here who didn't have to deal with an error at some point along the way. We had loads in our build. In my case, all but one of the contractors who made errors put them right at their expense. The other was unwilling to admit his team's error (poor workmanship, really), so they were asked to leave the site. It was very stressful firing them, but not as stressful as it would have been watching them continuing to do crap work. In short, if errors are being made about things as basic as finished floor level and they won't talk to you about it, you really want to ask yourself whether these are the right people to be doing the work.

 

Put it this way: you keep saying how stressed all of this is making you. If you actually DO something about what's causing you stress, the problem will be resolved one way or the other. Plus a large part of the pain in stressful situations is the feeling of helplessness. Taking some control of stressful situations is a guaranteed way of reducing the total amount of stress you'll suffer.

 

Finally, the reason people are posting things that are upsetting you is that you keep asking for advice, but you don't seem willing to listen to any of it. Ignoring competent people who freely share their experience and time to give advice is a sure fire way to rub people up the wrong way - and that includes people who are just reading the thread without contributing. I haven't given advice in this thread because I don't have any knowledge or experience in this area. But reading it makes me very frustrated about the way you're behaving - partly because you're sabotaging yourself and partly because you aren't listening to people, but also because it's frustrating watching someone allow others to walk all over them. 

 

As someone else suggested recently, why don't you go back and read this thread from the start, and see whether what people said would happen has actually happened. Perhaps that might give you some confidence to trust some of the advice you're getting.

[zoothorn]

8 minutes ago, PeterW said:

You could use a concrete slab on edge to hold back that hedge - cheap and cheerful 

 

That side Peter is no issue. The problem I have now, just speaking to no2 again, is because this is ALL 1ft lower.. this path area @ 600mm is being talked of I had never accounted for. This eats into the very small parking area I had meticulously accounterd, for in terms of where my corner point was decided at, with, only going 1 step down (IE the surrounding ground could go up to the extention). Now no2 is firm firm on this path area around PLUS  some sort of retaining wall: albeit 1x BIG FO block high at best (maybe 1.5 height needed I think). So now I'm not happy.

 

I wanted the adjacent ground -always- to go up to/ marry in with the extention, not some big step down into a path all around it. But I hjave no choice with this now. Not happy. But I can't visualise end result, the extra cost involved, whether I can -maybe- somehow backfill this damn path area I don't want.

[Onoff]

Backfill?

 

Best get up that forest with your wheelbarrow and do some reverse fly tipping! ?

[ToughButterCup]

1 minute ago, jack said:

Respectfully, [...]If you actually DO something about what's causing you stress, the problem will be resolved one way or the other.

[...]

 

Stress is normal @zoothorn. Use it creatively.

[jack]

5 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I wanted the adjacent ground -always- to go up to/ marry in with the extention, not some big step down into a path all around it. But I hjave no choice with this now. Not happy. But I can't visualise end result, the extra cost involved, whether I can -maybe- somehow backfill this damn path area I don't want.

 

Why do you keep talking about extra costs if you haven't agreed to a variation on what's shown on the plans? Is this not being built for an agreed price?

[zoothorn]

6 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Bottom line is there is no agreed proper drawing with levels stated. There's very little to work to other than that fag packet sketch. 

See if the BCO is happy (tomorrow?) and raise your concerns with him.

 

 

 

 

 

That's rude Onoff: my plans are exactly what I was asked to do not some quick sketch on a fag packet thank you. And there's obviously ample to work off if both happy with it to work from. Both are & said how neat, all good etc. I was not asked to do accurate footings depth. This was not my dept. I was asked where I want my doors, windows, etc etc.. critical positions --as a build plan, NOT NOT NOT as a detailed full plans (I was NOT expected to do this with perfect D footings, u-values etc etc how many times do I need to say it! NO) which is what you keep suggesting I should have given them. Wrong.

 

The depth of footings is therefor irrelevant, to my input. It matters not whether they are 10' deep or 10" deep IF my floor level is met.

 

There is a mistake by my no.2. NOT by me. Everyone is suggesting this is all my fault. It is not.

[zoothorn]

7 minutes ago, jack said:

 

Why do you keep talking about extra costs if you haven't agreed to a variation on what's shown on the plans? Is this not being built for an agreed price?

 

Why this damn gang mentality.. as soon as one person latches on, everyone else just dives in wanting their cut. Its the worst trait of forums, the worst trait of human behaviour too: tribal pack mentality attacking the weakest.

 

why not try & help instead of criticise? because you need to show others you are on the same side, piling in too.

[jack]

6 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Why this damn gang mentality.. as soon as one person latches on, everyone else just dives in wanting their cut. Its the worst trait of forums, the worst trait of human behaviour too: tribal pack mentality attacking the weakest.

 

why not try & help instead of criticise? because you need to show others you are on the same side, piling in too.

My comment was neither criticism nor an attack. I'm genuinely concerned that you could interpret it that way.

[ToughButterCup]

3 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

[...]

There is a mistake by my no.2. NOT by me. Everyone is suggesting this is all my fault. It is not.

 

Deep breath now .....

Fault allocation - on line or on the ground - is irrelevant. Its damned hard work stepping back from the whirlwind of stuff going tits-up.

Forums can never be the best or only place in which to ask for and write about advice.

On line, most people do their best to support others - but with the best will in the world, its a less than perfect place to deal with high stakes stuff like this.

 

We are up to seven pages of responses - hard to read and interpret accurately.

How about breaking your issues down into single chunks. Start a thread about each. And, where relvant, hyperlink them? 

And can I suggest that the more irritated you feel by any one response, the longer it should take for you (or anyone else for that matter) to reply.

Yes, I dont consistently apply my own advice .?

[Nickfromwales]

42 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Why this damn gang mentality.. as soon as one person latches on, everyone else just dives in wanting their cut. Its the worst trait of forums, the worst trait of human behaviour too: tribal pack mentality attacking the weakest.

 

why not try & help instead of criticise? because you need to show others you are on the same side, piling in too.

Zoot, you don’t fully contradict yourself, but what you say in one post does not marry up to what you state in another. 

A builder you cannot speak to, or instruct, for fear of them packing up and walking off site is an asshole. Simple. 

You sugar coat the situation, even though I’m not sure you realise you’re doing so, ( and that’s not picking fault btw I’m genuinely concerned for you here ), and the relationship is hugely unhealthy from my simple interpretation. 

To be clear, there is no pack mentality here, just individual members posting their thoughts / observations  You started this thread to get help / feedback / relief / confidence etc and therefore you must accept what had been written as CONSTRUCTIVE, as that’s exactly what it is ok ?

Fyi if I spoke to / behaved around my customers like these bullies do then I’d be out of work and rightly so. They’re not the best builders at all, and I think you’d get better builders with ease. You’re clearly a little intimidated and apprehensive to cause ripples, but you haven’t got out of the ground yet and you’ve had your third litter of kittens already!

Fantastic / amazing builders wouldn’t have f.ucked up the foundation level, end of.  

You're being given no opportunities to discuss / interject / guide and that is fatal. 

 

Were here to help so stop biting, also the advice you’re being given is free and impartial, so take a deep breath and look at this glass as half full not half empty please.  

Right now this feels like taking a horse to water but no drinky-drinky.

 

Explain that you will NOT be paying anything for the founds to be made up to the height that you indicated before work commenced. Simple, and end of ? Their fcuk up, their problem to sort. 

If they walk off when you state that, good bloody riddance and hello new day and new builders.

Either what you’re saying isn’t the full story, or you simply cannot see you’re being bullied.

Have that chat, stem the anxiety of speaking with them, and set a standard for how things are to roll forward. 

Have a cup of tea and a digestive biscuit before replying. ? 

[Redoctober]

4 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Right now this feels like taking a horse to water but no drinky-drinky.

 

?

[Construction Channel]

6 hours ago, zoothorn said:

 

why not try & help instead of criticise? because you need to show others you are on the same side, piling in too.

 

EVERYONE IS TRYING TO HELP! 

(with the possible exception of Onoff that is clearly just winding you up but I'm sure he did try in the beginning) 

 

I have read most of this thread and I really don't understand what's going on. 

 

If the empty footings were passed by the BCO then I'm sure they will be fine. 

 

I assume it's the top of your footings that you think is the wrong height? 

 

If so I still wouldn't worry as this can be corrected by laying more courses to bring it back to the height you were expecting. Same with the oversite (the area inside the footings) this can easily be altered by adding more or less hardcore. 

 

To help accurately we need either photos of whats worrying you or accurate diagrams. I'm not fussed if your builder is happy with what you provided. To try and help from the other side of a different country I need more details, preferably all referring back to a fixed datum. (existing FFL is usually a good one) and it would be even better to have a photo of the whole area so we can see if things in the surrounding area may be affecting it. 

 

The bit about not being able to have a conversation with the builders really does worry me. Although you don't want to hear it. You need to get things pinned down now. In writing or preferably on a drawing. If needs be it will be cheaper and easier for you to get another builder to carryon the work from this stage than it will be later on in the build. 

[Bitpipe]

A tactic I used with some trades was to say 'Help me to understand' vs 'I'm not happy'. At the end of that conversation you then have the right to say 'I'm not happy with that' or 'That's not what we agreed'.

 

If they can't explain why the floor level is off without loosing their temper or walking off site then you can't deal with them. Maybe they're used to rougher treatment and that gets their respect, who knows.It's not how I operate and does not sound like your comfort zone either.

 

Ultimately you control them by virtue of ££.  If you pay for work that you're not happy with (or accept overage cost that's not your fault) because you don't want them to go away or be abusive, then that is extortion in my opinion.

[Cpd]

From the very beginning of this thread I was concerned about the lack of detail in the drawings and even more so with the lack of a written down  fixed price properly broken down to show what was and what was not included in that price.  It’s a very small and simple  job in regards to detailed cost brake downs and transparency of what is and what is not included in the contract. 

 

I used to undertake contracts worth hundreds of thousands of dollars on a regular basis for very complicated works, it was clear down to the dollar what I was included and what was not, if the client asked me to change something or alter the quantity in any way it was a sit down to talk it through and get it all written down and  a signature from us both to approve the changes.

 

i have not giving you technical advice but I have provided you with warnings about how the contract is being run and my concerns about how it could so easily go horribly wrong. I stand by those warnings and still have hold my concerns, it’s a public forum and I am allowed  to voice my concerns !!!  If you don’t want to take people’s concerns seriously then that’s also up to you but then it becomes harder and harder for people to help as it’s like feeding a forest fire rather than fighting it. 
 

From far away it looks and sounds like this contract is destined to go Pete Tong and the longer you ignore people’s warnings and offers of advise the more us mere mortals  find ourselves holding our hands in front of our eyes and peaking out between fingers when reading the saga unfold...... 

 

I wish you all the best of luck and will let the technical helpers continue to provide you with GREAT information and advise, should I be able to offer some technical advise I will. 

 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

Ok appreciate yesterday's replies above after my strop. A day of respite, & sun to get away from the build was needed. Forums do have the tendency for a need to impress, either opinion or other members, remains my opinion.. but I'll put this aside for now.

 

I understand the comments about the builders not being up to par. They are valid comments. But I'm caught between a rock & a hard place here..

 

The 2nd builder has definitely gone down too low.. by exactly 350mm too. I've measured 4850mm from the top room ceiling > down. This ceiling line across, conveniently intersects the existing eaves, so I did as I saw 2nd builder do (very 1st thing he did) & measure down from this point. There's a line he put up on wall under eaves. So just above the 1100mm window.. ceiling line > across = X.

 

If you look on my plan, its quite clear to work down with 3 figures to be added up 2300mm + 200mm + 2000mm. I have put very clearly where the 350mm step is, & the 2000mm line clearly does not stop before it, but includes this 350mm. What builder 2 has done is he's ADDED the 350mm TO the 2000mm, wrongly.

 

Would you agree with me, if only this, that this is almost 100% definite what has happened?

 

Again my plan..

 

 

[Declan52]

Ok you are where you are so let's try and figure out what can happen next and less on what has already gone.

So to try to help a bit we need a bit more information.

Distance from the top of your Founds to your finished floor level in your house, doesn't have to be exact to the mm an inch out is fine for now.

How much insulation did you plan to put under the floor??

How thick is concrete screed for your finished floor??

Have you any services to go in, things like a toilet or sink or shower???

[Onoff]

That 2300mm is it from the existing upstairs ceiling height? I'm guessing it is but it should be clearly marked so there's no doubt. Theres no datum i.e an unequivocal reference point marked, to work from. 

 

Moving on...they need to block up the difference at their cost with blocks suitable for below ground, and infill accordingly. 

 

I wonder with all that accidental depth if you couldn't make use of it and put extra insulation in and maybe some UFH pipes...

[zoothorn]

Photos as it is, with a socking great 600mm wide trench I'd never anticipated around it too.. due to having gone down the extra 350mm is my reasoning for it, but maybe this trench would have been done anyway? He told me he needed to do this for 'access' & reluctantly I agreed thinking only that it was for brickie's access (IE temporary/ & earth piled > blocks done > earth put back I assumed).. so I do some work, come back & see no pile of earth. So builder2 can say I gave him permission, when it wasn't clear (purposefully I believe) that it was a permanent extraction, & that a "retaining wall/ this a path area now" he says.. all bits Id NEVER known about, anticipated, planned or really understanding why the need for this fkn trench, even now.

 

You can see here how low we've gone relative to the (already small) parking area. Id spent months of meticulous thought on this corner point & the parking area squashed in front. A precise cnr point, to give me -just- room for 2 cars. Meticulous pin-point design, ruined by 600mm damn trench. And talk of retaining walls & paths around it (urgh).

 

 

[zoothorn]

9 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

Ok you are where you are so let's try and figure out what can happen next and less on what has already gone.

So to try to help a bit we need a bit more information.

Distance from the top of your Founds to your finished floor level in your house, doesn't have to be exact to the mm an inch out is fine for now.

How much insulation did you plan to put under the floor??

How thick is concrete screed for your finished floor??

Have you any services to go in, things like a toilet or sink or shower???

 

Hi Declan. I've just put up my plan again ^ for convenience: you can see the 350mm fig. I explained to main builder1 (I went through the 3 simple pages with him carefully, made sure happy with my drawings- very happy "good, neat") the 350mm figure, & it being from the finished floor level in the house. I said the broken lines are "original floor levels". Understood. "Am I right broken lines are usual as used for such adjacent/ finished floor levels".. "yes". So I did my best, my very best. Yes I forgot the wording.. 'orig floor level' but he didn't show ANY concern, as I could see he understood perfectly simply. Thing is he didn't do the groundwork as I assumed he would, his chap2 suddenly appears & wants to start wed 3pm. No warning. "Erm.. ok.. you have plan & happy? (Yes- all clear). I'll just put a mark where existing floor is.. & critical thing is 350mm down from it". 

 

So I crossed every t & dotted every i. As best I could. And I get a slew/ deluge of opinion on here that my plan's not this or that, or its all my fault. No, that's just not right at all. More haste less speed is the fault, this & only this.

[zoothorn]

@Declan52 sorry to answer your Q's.

• 350mm
• 100mm (whether 50mm-100mm it doesnt alter the final floor/ scree H, as this has to be @ top of the 2x 9" blocks surely?)
• 25mm? (again whatever is planned, to meet the top of the 2x9" blocks' level.. I don't know how it could be any extra)
• No services, just minimal electrics.