Hi - Help for studies

[SimDav]

Good afternoon all, I'm Simon.

 

I'm currently studying an HNC in Construction and am after some help and information from the wise people on the forum.

 

I posed a difficult question to myself for my current project. I asked if ICF house construction could replace traditional methods and help solve a housing shortage issue in the UK whilst addressing some sustainability issues.

 

I realise this is a really complex task and has many variables. My first plan is to compare the costs associated with both methods to build a set size house and the time it takes to get each to a completed shell state. (Unfinished exterior)

 

The building size is a 3 bed, 2 storey, 150m2 useable space, detached property with 15% openings. The foundations are complete and the costing's are just for a building shell, unfinished exterior, without a roof. I have a few good comparisons of cost from some of the ICF manufacturers (Durisol, Polysteel Warmwall) who have sent me quotes and comparisons of what their costs and timings would be. Some of them have given a comparison of theirs vs. traditional methods but I am trying to get as many other opinions/quotes as possible so I can average them out and give a fair representation of how much and how long this will take.

 

Can anyone offer any advice, help of how best to achieve a good comparison? Are there any builders using traditional block/brick cavity walls out there that could give me rough quote?

 

Thanks for reading and your time

 

Simon

[ProDave]

I don't see how choosing a different construction method could solve a housing shortage?

 

Any housing shortage is the result of planning policy, and / or the way large house builders land bank land and only develop it when they believe they will be able to sell the houses quickly.  It has little to do with the time it takes to build a house.

[Jeremy Harris]

Welcome, @SimDav.

 

Sustainability really means getting away from energy and CO₂ intensive construction materials, IMHO.  I'm not sure how ICF really meets that requirement, as many forms of ICF use plastic insulation, plus ICF uses fairly large amounts of concrete, which is very energy and CO₂ intensive, both in manufacture and transport.

 

Probably the best approach to sustainable housing, and one that meets the requirement to build houses quickly, would be timber frame construction.  The ability to manufacture closed panel timber cassettes, in a controlled indoor environment, and quickly erect them on site meets the need to build houses rapidly.  The relatively low CO₂ involved in felling and processing timber, plus the carbon that remains sequestered in the timber itself, makes this about as low a carbon construction method as there is.  This sort of construction method also fits well with the use of low CO2 insulation materials, like wood fibre or blown cellulose, so reducing the carbon footprint still further.

 

Coupled with a foundation system that uses only modest amounts of CO₂ intensive material, it's perfectly possible to get a house that goes from bare ground to watertight, insulated and airtight shell inside two or three weeks, something that is a useful attribute given the variability of the weather here in the UK.

 

 

[ToughButterCup]

24 minutes ago, SimDav said:

[...]

 I asked if ICF house construction could replace traditional methods

[...]

 

It could. But it won't.

The building sector has no incentive at all to make substantial change. The training infrastructure isnt there, the political will isn't there, developers have a strangle-hold on the supply chain.

 

I am building an ICF house. Locally the level of disbelief in anyone building something other than entirely traditional house is substantial. 

[SteamyTea]

Welcome.

Which of the 3 pillars of sustainability are you most interested in?

Answer that and then you know where to focus your studies.

 

[Russell griffiths]

Agree with dave, building mass housing is not hard, you can choose any method and get a house up in about 14-16 weeks and habitable, it’s getting the councils to release the land and removing the profits from the developers that put a stop on things. 

Why are councils not making available serviced plots, ready to go with a small mark up on them. 

[nod]

A comparison between traditional and Timber Frame isn’t always easy The TF is always more expensive

As I Plastering contractor just before we started our build I was asked by an old friend to quote for his self build in the Lake District 

There were three others on the site

I was asked to quote for the others also 

One was identical style to his But TF 

I was quite surprised that  he was up to £64000 watertight no first fix plumbing or electric While the TF was at £108000 But started three months after his

I would guess that  the costs from that stage on would be identical 

[Jeremy Harris]

7 minutes ago, nod said:

A comparison between traditional and Timber Frame isn’t always easy The TF is always more expensive

As I Plastering contractor just before we started our build I was asked by an old friend to quote for his self build in the Lake District 

There were three others on the site

I was asked to quote for the others also 

One was identical style to his But TF 

I was quite surprised that  he was up to £64000 watertight no first fix plumbing or electric While the TF was at £108000 But started three months after his

I would guess that  the costs from that stage on would be identical 

 

 

I guess it depends on the TF manufacturer, and the time it takes to erect, but for us TF was a LOT cheaper than traditional construction.  The initial quotes we had for traditional construction were over 50% higher than for TF, and also had no airtightness guarantee, and slightly worse insulation levels.

[the_r_sole]

.

Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[nod]

59 minutes ago, SimDav said:

Good afternoon all, I'm Simon.

 

I'm currently studying an HNC in Construction and am after some help and information from the wise people on the forum.

 

I posed a difficult question to myself for my current project. I asked if ICF house construction could replace traditional methods and help solve a housing shortage issue in the UK whilst addressing some sustainability issues.

 

I realise this is a really complex task and has many variables. My first plan is to compare the costs associated with both methods to build a set size house and the time it takes to get each to a completed shell state. (Unfinished exterior)

 

The building size is a 3 bed, 2 storey, 150m2 useable space, detached property with 15% openings. The foundations are complete and the costing's are just for a building shell, unfinished exterior, without a roof. I have a few good comparisons of cost from some of the ICF manufacturers (Durisol, Polysteel Warmwall) who have sent me quotes and comparisons of what their costs and timings would be. Some of them have given a comparison of theirs vs. traditional methods but I am trying to get as many other opinions/quotes as possible so I can average them out and give a fair representation of how much and how long this will take.

 

Can anyone offer any advice, help of how best to achieve a good comparison? Are there any builders using traditional block/brick cavity walls out there that could give me rough quote?

 

Thanks for reading and your time

 

Simon

I family company that I have done a lot  of work for over the last twenty years build several hundred student accommodation in various locations All in TF 

The Timescale for completion would be impossible in traditional 

 

Back in 2008 just as the recession hit They started a site by Preston docklands All TF With running costs a fraction of local sites which had all but ceased du to the recession kicking in

They houses sold like hot cakes and kept us flat out til 2009 

These houses were heavily subsidised by central government

When we left the site there  was about a dozen unsold 

This company has four housing site at the moment 

All traditional 

The government has to make it cost effective for companies to change 

 

[Ferdinand]

Hi Simon

 

It's really nice to see someone working on an HNC not a degree !

 

F

[Simplysimon]

1 hour ago, nod said:

traditional and Timber Frame isn’t always easy

up here tf has been the traditional method for years, i cannot see how b&b can be faster and cheaper than timber. the weather is less of a hinderance and the house wind and water tight faster, the insulation is in the inner leaf as opposed to on its face so more floor space and easier fixings for the householder in the future.

 

25 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

 

It's really nice to see someone working on an HNC not a degree !

if he's in the trade and doing it in his own time he may yet go on to uni and go into management.

 

housing shortage is also due to firms building detached houses with a few semi-det. what is required are more terraces/four in a block, however, these won't sell well nor will they sell for a premium. the article recently about people having to live in shipping containers and how bad it is, contrast this with the grand design in NI where an architect was happy to use this method to build with and live in. if you wish to cut build costs and cut housing waiting lists, we need more container living, it does need to be insulated properly and well designed though.

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, nod said:

I....

Back in 2008 just as the recession hit They started a site by Preston docklands All TF With running costs a fraction of local sites which had all but ceased du to the recession kicking in

They houses sold like hot cakes and kept us flat out til 2009 

These houses were heavily subsidised by central government

When we left the site there  was about a dozen unsold 

This company has four housing site at the moment 

All traditional 

The government has to make it cost effective for companies to change 

 

By what mechanism were they subsidised?

[Stones]

2 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

Why are councils not making available serviced plots, ready to go with a small mark up on them. 

 

They do in some areas, albeit in a small way.  The one's I have seen have formed part of a wider development site that includes social housing, something that does put some buyers off / may limit the market. 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

46 minutes ago, Simplysimon said:

up here tf has been the traditional method for years, i cannot see how b&b can be faster and cheaper than timber. the weather is less of a hinderance and the house wind and water tight faster, the insulation is in the inner leaf as opposed to on its face so more floor space and easier fixings for the householder in the future.

 

if he's in the trade and doing it in his own time he may yet go on to uni and go into management.

 

 

It’s great to somebody with background and hinterland working through the structure, to get real valuable experience rather than just dry academic qualifications!

[nod]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

By what mechanism were they subsidised?

The heating system was a big thing either air-con type unit in the back garden Water harvesting That sort of thing They were  able to keep the price down with a promise of a couple of hundred quid per year energy bills 

I know the criteria was quite strict 

 

We did a large village pub conversion for the same company

He spent 70 k on a bio boiler 

with a 6k per year subsidy over ten years 

He’s quite clued up 

 

[nod]

1 hour ago, Simplysimon said:

up here tf has been the traditional method for years, i cannot see how b&b can be faster and cheaper than timber. the weather is less of a hinderance and the house wind and water tight faster, the insulation is in the inner leaf as opposed to on its face so more floor space and easier fixings for the householder in the future.

 

if he's in the trade and doing it in his own time he may yet go on to uni and go into management.

 

housing shortage is also due to firms building detached houses with a few semi-det. what is required are more terraces/four in a block, however, these won't sell well nor will they sell for a premium. the article recently about people having to live in shipping containers and how bad it is, contrast this with the grand design in NI where an architect was happy to use this method to build with and live in. if you wish to cut build costs and cut housing waiting lists, we need more container living, it does need to be insulated properly and well designed though.

We’re we have built The house across the road has been knocked down and 150 built in its place Though most are detached 

I worked this house for a year when I left school

[Declan52]

1 hour ago, Simplysimon said:

housing shortage is also due to firms building detached houses with a few semi-det. what is required are more terraces/four in a block, however, these won't sell well nor will they sell for a premium. the article recently about people having to live in shipping containers and how bad it is, contrast this with the grand design in NI where an architect was happy to use this method to build with and live in. if you wish to cut build costs and cut housing waiting lists, we need more container living, it does need to be insulated properly and well designed though.

But it will take a massive change in attitudes from the mortgage companies as paddy Bradley explained on the show. They won't touch that type of build.

[Patrick]

4 hours ago, ProDave said:

I don't see how choosing a different construction method could solve a housing shortage?

 

Any housing shortage is the result of planning policy, and / or the way large house builders land bank land and only develop it when they believe they will be able to sell the houses quickly.  It has little to do with the time it takes to build a house.

+1 to this one. VERY MUCH a planning /land issue

[SteamyTea]

I wrote, rather sarcastically, about the difference between cars and houses a while back.

I will come clean, it was not my idea, but one from @Ed Davies a few years back.

But here is the link anyway.

Building Cars and Houses

 

I do think that we have to seriously reform planning and all the professional fees we pay to build.  An old work mate was building two identical houses, so had to pay the timber frame company two lots of fees for architectural and structural work, just imagine if you had to pay the full development costs of a tire for each corner of your car.

[Ferdinand]

13 hours ago, SimDav said:

Good afternoon all, I'm Simon.

 

I'm currently studying an HNC in Construction and am after some help and information from the wise people on the forum.

 

I posed a difficult question to myself for my current project. I asked if ICF house construction could replace traditional methods and help solve a housing shortage issue in the UK whilst addressing some sustainability issues.

 

Can anyone offer any advice, help of how best to achieve a good comparison? 

 

Thanks for reading and your time

 

Simon

 

You could do worse that get hold of a copy of SPONS for some basic comparisons.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

 

9 hours ago, Sensus said:

This is at least partly down to the current Planning system with regard to affordable housing: if you're being forced to build every third house at no profit, you make damned sure that the other two are as big, expensive and profitable as you can, to cover your costs.

 

is that correct? I thought that numbers for compulsory affordable housing had a profit element built in.

 

And that the mix required is actually set by the  Local Plan d/ housing needs sssessment.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

[SteamyTea]

The definition and calculations for affordable housing are also a nonsense, 

[patp]

Take a look back at the wartime prefabs (pre fabricated houses). They came in kit form, were all identical, and people loved them! There are some, I believe, still around. It is communities that make people happy

 

On the planning side of things there are sites around here that have been held up for years while developers and planners wrangle over "section 106" agreements. Planners say they want x number of affordables, a green space, a contribution to the village hall etc. The developers just say the site is not viable and it goes on and on. As our Local Authority has not met its housing targets they are having to back down and allow developers to get away with building with no planning gain. The community loses out as we are being saddled with soulless estates of identikit houses with no green space or other amenities.