Canalside Bungalow Renovation

Taking a step back, and reflecting on my own very similar experience, is your main concern the (lack of) fall or the quality of finish? I am a but more relaxed about less-than-perfect falls with modern materials, not least given that when I started doing loads of research about the issues - not from forum discussions but in standards documents, manufacturers literature etc - it really was more about the consequences of the extra loading of standing water, freezing causing safety issues etc thus not particularly significant for most domestic situations. As some one (in here I think) told me; a roof with a hole in it will leak whether there's a fall or not. If it's the quality issue then that can surely be resolved without replacing or building over the roof from what I've read from others on here that know about GRP. For what it's worth our building inspector's opinion was not to rip the roof off and start again. I don't think we discussed building over though unfortunately.

 

Just wanted to chuck that in given what I went through as the situations are uncannily similar. (Same roofer perhaps?! ) Do also be mindful that when you post up 'shoddy' work on the Internet it really gets ripped apart and you end up feeling like you've got the world's worst house and are the world's worst customer for letting it happen. Reality is there are probably thousands of these 'shoddy' roofs around that have simply never been offered up for critique. Remember: I see them all the time on the TV and soon so will you...

Edited September 25, 2020 by MJNewton

3 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Good on the builder fir fessing up, I think his offer is a good one and won’t delay your programme. Must be a great weight off your mind ?

 

Yes it is, I think he was genuinely embarrassed and as a local builder known to the village he wouldn't want his reputation to be damaged.

 

I know they are focusing on the flooring next week so there won't be any immediate rectification but he assures me it will be sorted. I just hope the laying of the GRP is better this time around.

Something to add: If adding on a new roof on top, would there be edge detailing challenges? (Or would they be ripped off to give a simpler base on which to lay the boards and new edging?)

1 minute ago, canalsiderenovation said:

I just hope the laying of the GRP is better this time around.

 

I would expect it to be snooker table flat. On second thoughts...

4 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

Something to add: If adding on a new roof on top, would there be edge detailing challenges? (Or would they be ripped off to give a simpler base on which to lay the boards and new edging?)

 

I did mention the edging and he assures me this will be sorted with the new roof but would be a slightly higher edging in light of the extra roof.

?

@SteamyTea

Do you think they’d be better off feathering in a fall with layers of mat and gel coat? Doesn’t look like it is “miles off” to me? 
A competent GRP installer would be able to advise, and won’t be a compromise on quality but would be a heck of a lot easier than laying a firred roof over that again. 

 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Nickfromwales

My only concern is has water got into the OSB / ply with the delaminated bits we’ve seen so far? They need sealing up ASAP before getting on with next weeks distractions. 

I think @canalsiderenovation should go back to the architect or person who produced the technical drawings, explain the lack of fall problem and then ask the architect what was the original designed height differential between the main tiled/pitched section and wall plate of the flat roof extension.

 

My theory is that the GRP roofer is not the total incompetent as concluded so far and in fact he realized the main builder had bought the main walls up a few cm too high. Given the slim margin between gutter height of the main building and the finished level of the flat GRP roof, if the main builder errored how could gradient be created.

 

Before proceeding with the supplementary pitched roof idea I would want an independent design from the architect showing details of the internal gully where the grp roof meets the tiled roof.

On 24/09/2020 at 20:03, Big Jimbo said:

That is not how grp roofs are done. They have no comparison with boats. Your roof might be ply, or osb. They have gone over the joins in the wood with One layer of 100mm wide matting. They have then laid matting (ONE LAYER) over the whole roof. They have then put on a top coat over that (no matting) This give it the colour. IT IS NOTHING LIKE A BLOODY BOAT.

 

 

I agree with the sentiment but want to point out that some yachts are manufactured using a composite of grp sheathing over ply sheet.

 

RM Yachts in france has applied this technique though it remains a niche option because most people spending £100k+ on a yacht share your concern that grp + wood sheet + water is not a happy combination.

 

http://www.rm-yachts.com/en/the-concept

What a very nice bunch of people on here. The paid builder built a roof and did'nt bother to create any fall with firing pieces. This is'nt DIY. This is a paid local professional builder. Has he never done a roof before ? None of this is canalsides fault. He has admitted that he knew it was a crap job, but instead of adressing it, he has carried on with the build ! So how is he now going to fit the firing pieces that he did'nt bother to fit ? Is he going to glass them on to the existing roof finish ? Is he going to screw them down through the glass roof into the joists below ? (He is going to need bloody long screws) If that is a warm roof, he is now going to create an unventilated void above it that condensation will love. If he does screw the firing pieces down, there goes the waterproof layer of the existing crap grp roof. Those new firing pieces in the unventilated space are going to get seriously damp, and rot. What he is proposing is going to leave you with nothing that will ever be any better than a bodge job. And a bodge job that you will have paid for. I'm afraid to say it's time to put his hands up. Stick a tin hat on top of those sections of your property, rip that rotton roof off, and do the job properly. In my opinion anythink else is just a total bodge job, and not what you are paying for. Regardless of what you end up doing, tell me you are not seriously going to let the same GRP specialist !!!!!! that has done such a rubbish job anywhere near your property.

I tend to agree with @Big Jimbo as above, contact your architect and get his views. You are paying good money and want a good job, if your architect insists on a rebuild (I hope) you can tell the builder that as it will be your architect that carries the can for a faulty design you have to do it his way (might keep you on good terms with the builder!!!!) and insist on a GRP man that has insurance and offers a guarantee.

I am going to contact the architects now. They are also local too.

 

@Big Jimbo I don't know your answer to your questions but these are valid points and the exact things I wanted to know. It's going to create a huge spanner in the works getting the roof off but if the secondary roof is going to create issues I'd rather delays. And yes it's a warm roof 

1 minute ago, canalsiderenovation said:

I am going to contact the architects now. They are also local too.

 

@Big Jimbo I don't know your answer to your questions but these are valid points and the exact things I wanted to know. It's going to create a huge spanner in the works getting the roof off but if the secondary roof is going to create issues I'd rather delays. And yes it's a warm roof 

So it's a warm roof. Needs to be ripped off then. I don't care what others say. The GRP bodger has used cut edges of glass on your trims, instead of fraying them. And, i can see the glass through the gel coat. This GRP roof was not done by a pro. It was prob done by his lads who did'nt have much of a clue. Unless your builder is a total muppet, he knew your roof had not been constructed properly. (No firing pieces) However, he hoped it would be ok, and carried on regardless. He has been caught out. (Thankfully) Make him do it properly. The bodge he is proposing will cause you untold problems in the future when he and his g-tee is long gone. Anybody in the future who comes to put your roof right is going to tell you that to do it properly is going to be roof off job. That is going to cost you a fortune, and a crap load of stress. You have the chance to avoid all that. Up to you, but without question, you have not got what you are paying for. Get it ripped off, and done right now. Or, live to regret it.

Just to say, if your Architect recommended the builder, be very careful. He will be on a few bob from the builder for recomending him to you. This means that he will usually side with the buider and tell you that what he is proposing is fine. Seen it many times.

3 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

Just to say, if your Architect recommended the builder

 

No, they didn't know one another until we introduced them. They said, we are a small town/village so people tend to know everyone, familiar with one another.

 

We certainly don't want any issues so if it means the roof coming off it will have to happen. They will just have to protect the UFH and piping/flooring.

Edited September 26, 2020 by canalsiderenovation

That should help then. Meet your Architect without your builder being present. Let him know that the construction of your roof has been done with no firing pieces, and that the quality of the GRP roofing is very poor. He should also be telling you that the roof needs to be ripped off.

7 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

That should help then. Meet your Architect without your builder being present. Let him know that the construction of your roof has been done with no firing pieces, and that the quality of the GRP roofing is very poor. He should also be telling you that the roof needs to be ripped off.

 

To be honest after reading what you said even without any opinion of the architect the solution he is proposing doesn't sound good.

1 minute ago, canalsiderenovation said:

 

To be honest after reading what you said even without any opinion of the architect the solution he is proposing doesn't sound good.

No it's not. It's a bodge. might be ok for a few years, But...................................................

It don't see why the existing cannot be safely built over.  I would want to know that the OSB or ply on the existing was thick enough to hold the proposed screws.  The new firrings need to be very well fixed down, then the new OSB or ply would be best fixed through the firrings, so some very long screws needed near the apex.  There is nothing wrong with having the additional void, as you always get one with firrings.

 

I think it would just be a waste to scrap what is there.

1 minute ago, Mr Punter said:

It don't see why the existing cannot be safely built over.  I would want to know that the OSB or ply on the existing was thick enough to hold the proposed screws.  The new firrings need to be very well fixed down, then the new OSB or ply would be best fixed through the firrings, so some very long screws needed near the apex.  There is nothing wrong with having the additional void, as you always get one with firrings.

 

I think it would just be a waste to scrap what is there.

You dont get a void with a warm roof Mr Punter. Insulation is on top  of the roof. Including the firing pieces.

Warm roof = joists, firing pieces, osb, Vcl, insulation, + roof finish epdm etc....... No void.

@Mr Punter I disagree, it it were a DIY job gone wrong then maybe but the architect designed in the firrings so without them his insurance will be void,!! Also the GRP job is crap and needs doing properly. I once had a building Inspector tell me to alter a steel and I refused telling him it had been designed by a Structural engineer and passed by his dept. I pointed out if I altered it the customers guarantee from the SE was void, he backed down.

Edited September 26, 2020 by joe90

39 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

And, i can see the glass through the gel coat. This GRP roof was not done by a pro.

 

 

Do you mean flowcoat? There is a difference:

 

https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?threads/the-difference-between-gelcoat-and-flowcoat.458139/

5 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

Do you mean flowcoat? There is a difference:

 

https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?threads/the-difference-between-gelcoat-and-flowcoat.458139/

I stand corrected on what the top coat might be called. Still an utter shite job by builder, and Grp'er.

32 minutes ago, canalsiderenovation said:

To be honest after reading what you said even without any opinion of the architect the solution he is proposing doesn't sound good.

 

 

It would be wise to be alert to the possibility that the main builder and grp roofer are engaged in some good cop/bad cop routine, with the intent to steer you towards a fix that is the cheapest for them.

 

I suspect there is a longer chain of events that have led up to this problem. The limited height differential between the tiled pitched roof and flat roof means there is no much scope to accommodate an error. The builder and roofer know about roof gradients so why didn't they do the obvious? Perhaps an unsupervised brickie took a short cut and finished the internal wall with a course of full height blocks when the drawing showed two courses of regular height bricks. So now deprived of 75mm to accommodate a gradient the carpenter creating the roof structure discovered he could not create a gradient without clashing with the main roof.

 

@canalsiderenovationThe roof is not going to fail calamitously during a single winter so have you considered pausing, getting your sanity back, taking a few months to digest various expert opinion and solutions, then implementing the favoured solution with a surgical roof replacement early next summer.