Canalside Bungalow Renovation

10 minutes ago, joe90 said:

The pooling is not a problem but the “delaminating” from the trim is wrong, make sure you photograph every area where this has occurred. @SteamyTea will be along in a moment to suggest it’s remedy (that the roofer should do). Don’t know if it’s luck or judgement (hopefully the latter) I have never had that happen on a roof I have done.

 

Thanks. I was actually having a couple of days away but my wife just sent me these. I'll get photos and get on to the builder. My patience is wearing thin!

14 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

I know others are a fan of the old GRP. I could not live with that. I would be having that whole roof ripped off. I have built atleast 20 flat roofs, and i have never built One Flat, for the reason that, regardless of what you cover it with, it will look like yours. I am not saying that it won't be ok, but it looks dreadful. What do your drawings say ? have your drawings asked for a flat roof, or do they show a fall, constructed by perhaps firing pieces. If your drawings ask for a flat roof, then that is what you have got. If your drawings ask for a flat roof will falls, i would make him rip the whole lot off.

I must agree that I favour a slope of some sort if only minimal. If done properly GRP must be very waterproof as there are millions of boats made from it and some very old ones. This has not been done well!!

We have pooling on our front flat roof - was a very dry winter (2015) so this only became evident later. Couldn't face the hassle of stripping off the GRP and getting the fall resolved and re-roofing it - would also have required the majority of slates to come off the pitched roof that abuts it as the GRP continues up and under the slates. No leaks in 5 years so it's an aesthetic issue - roofer said that he could try and build up layers of top coat to create a fall, but would be at my cost now.

 

Rear flat roof top coating has failed though, curling up and peeling off. Roofer came to remedy last summer, removed all loose and re-coated but it's gone again. No compromise on watertightness but this is an aesthetic I will get remedied. Obviously forgot to get round to it during the endless sunny days this year but will get it sorted next summer.

 

Can someone here explain why topcoat fails? It's only ever happened on this one piece of roof, rest is absolutely fine.   

2 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I must agree that I favour a slope of some sort if only minimal. If done properly GRP must be very waterproof as there are millions of boats made from it and some very old ones. This has not been done well!!

I do agree Jo90. Grp done very well can look fantastic. However, i have not seen it done well very often. That roof has not been done by a pro. It's been done by a chancer, and badly. I have a pal, Jimmy the lead. He don't do tiling, Grp, Epdm. All he does is lead, and it shows. There is not a chance i would put up with work like that. This is not one of the gang on here, trying to do the best they can to save a few bob. Canalside is paying for this crap.

12 minutes ago, joe90 said:

have your drawings asked for a flat roof, or do they show a fall, constructed by perhaps firing pieces. If your drawings ask for a flat roof, then that is what you have got. If your drawings ask for a flat roof will falls, i would make him rip the whole lot off.

 

I've just had quick look at what I've got on my phone and it says;

 

INSULATION BONDED TO VCL ON 22MM EXTERNAL QUALITY PLYWOOD 
DECKING OR SIMILAR APPROVED ON SW FIRINGS TO MINIMUM 1 IN 80 
FALL ON SW TREATED 47 X 170MM FLAT ROOF C24 TIMBER JOISTS AT 
400MM CTRS TO GIVE A MAX SPAN OF 3.22M OR AS STRUCTURAL 
ENGINEER'S DETAILS AND CALCULATIONS.

 

To me this looks like there should be a fall on the roof. Is this right?

5 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

This is not one of the gang on here, trying to do the best they can to save a few bob. Canalside is paying for this crap.

 

Exactly this! I strongly suspect rather than get someone, a professional who he could have subcontracted it to, he's took a chance on doing it with his gang of men and made a royal bodge of it. Now I need to do a strongly worded email because he has dismissed me twice now, once just adding more coats and on site when I pointed out specific issues saying it was normal and never going to be perfect.....

42 minutes ago, canalsiderenovation said:

 

I've just had quick look at what I've got on my phone and it says;

 

INSULATION BONDED TO VCL ON 22MM EXTERNAL QUALITY PLYWOOD 
DECKING OR SIMILAR APPROVED ON SW FIRINGS TO MINIMUM 1 IN 80 
FALL ON SW TREATED 47 X 170MM FLAT ROOF C24 TIMBER JOISTS AT 
400MM CTRS TO GIVE A MAX SPAN OF 3.22M OR AS STRUCTURAL 
ENGINEER'S DETAILS AND CALCULATIONS.

 

To me this looks like there should be a fall on the roof. Is this right?

 

Pretty certain that's what the firings are for

50 minutes ago, canalsiderenovation said:

To me this looks like there should be a fall on the roof. Is this right?

YES, looking at those photo,s there is no fall or not consistent. Are the ceilings up inside? If not you should see the firings (long wedges to create a fall. Time to call the builders and have this out with him.

Edited September 24, 2020 by joe90

52 minutes ago, canalsiderenovation said:

 

I've just had quick look at what I've got on my phone and it says;

 

INSULATION BONDED TO VCL ON 22MM EXTERNAL QUALITY PLYWOOD 
DECKING OR SIMILAR APPROVED ON SW FIRINGS TO MINIMUM 1 IN 80 
FALL ON SW TREATED 47 X 170MM FLAT ROOF C24 TIMBER JOISTS AT 
400MM CTRS TO GIVE A MAX SPAN OF 3.22M OR AS STRUCTURAL 
ENGINEER'S DETAILS AND CALCULATIONS.

 

To me this looks like there should be a fall on the roof. Is this right?

Your roof should have a fall. 1:80 To explain, for every 80cm of travel, it should drop (be lower ) by 1cm. Your roof has no fall. I would make him rip it off and start again, or sling his butt off site. people keep going on about boats lasting forever etc. Now, i am not a boat builder, but i have built 1 grp boat. I started with a mold, and i laid in a couloured gel coat. This was followed by atleast 5 layers of matting. So overall the hull was about 7mm thick. That is not how grp roofs are done. They have no comparison with boats. Your roof might be ply, or osb. They have gone over the joins in the wood with One layer of 100mm wide matting. They have then laid matting (ONE LAYER) over the whole roof. They have then put on a top coat over that (no matting) This give it the colour. IT IS NOTHING LIKE A BLOODY BOAT. Get the crap builder to rip off the whole sodding roof, and start again. Unless he said to you up front "Here is your quote mate. It's very cheap. It will a lot cheaper than any other quotes you get, because i am a bit of a bodger. Don't complain if it don't look like Buck Palace" That is One large roof. Get it done right, or you will regret it forever. If you put your house on the market, and i came to see it. I would be telling you to knock 30k off the price, because i am going to have to rip that crap roof off......... And, forget about boats.

Thank you everyone. I am going to email now and ask to meet tomorrow.

More pics, it was going a bit dark....

 



 

 

Good for you. Tell him he has missed the firing pieces that provide the fall to the roof, so he will need to rip off his badly done grp roof, and the rest of it, back to the timbers so that the firings can be fitted.........

2 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

Good for you. Tell him he has missed the firing pieces that provide the fall to the roof, so he will need to rip off his badly done grp roof, and the rest of it, back to the timbers so that the firings can be fitted.........

I've basically said we want the fall on the roof, exactly as it was on the plans.

46 minutes ago, canalsiderenovation said:

Thank you everyone. I am going to email now and ask to meet tomorrow.

It needs to be with him and you two, alone in the quiet, no distractions, and with the graveyard expression on both of your faces. 
And just stick to one goal, roof off,  and then do it properly via a company that has an insurance policy that covers that type of work.  ( and the skills  ). 

4 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

It needs to be with him and you two, alone in the quiet, no distractions, and with the graveyard expression on both of your faces. 
And just stick to one goal, roof off,  and then do it properly via a company that has an insurance policy that covers that type of work.  ( and the skills  ). 

 

Yes I'm suggesting after 5pm. His message just now suggests he has 'identified the problem and is sorting it' . I know what the problem is, whoever has done it! The sorting it needs confirming because it's not more layers. I'm quite within my rights to ask for it to be taken off and redone.

Yup. 

4 hours ago, canalsiderenovation said:

hoping for some advice.

While it may be watertight, I would not be happy with that amount of pooling.

If the builder/roofer/GPR person suggest covering it in shingle, you know what to do.

This post gave me a sense of deja vu following similar issues I had a couple of years back, except in my case it was using a liquid membrane coating. Our roof had a fall issue although it did have a slight onel, just not as big/consistent a one as is generally advised as discussed above. The issue with our coating was also a case of arguably-shoddy workmanship in areas (combined with a fussy customer who panics about everything but I'm not suggesting that's you here!).

 

We ended up not ripping the roof up given the potential risk of damage (known and unknown, noting there was also a very-well built and dimensioned roof lantern cutout taking up the majority) to the rest of the works and the fact that our roof coating was specified as being suitable for perfectly flat roofs anyway (and apparently this being a common installation in other countries that moved on from felt etc many years ago). The poor finish in some areas was something I could learn to live with given they gave it another coating for added reassurance (to me as I was the only one worried) regarding waterproofness. It also helped that whilst I didn't know the roofer I did trust and respect the builder who subbed him and so was willing to go along with the proposal following some input from the technical director of the company that supplied the product.

 

I think you've had all the technical guidance you need already; all I would add is the advice not to let it consume you. I was really bothered by it - upset even - and just reading this thread reminded me how bad it was!

 

Incidentally, our poor fall is something that still haunts me a little bit today... the roof gets really dirty and I've always wondered if a greater fall would've reduced this. Perhaps it's more to do with the grey colour and slightly sheltered location though, particularly as even the full-pitch roof on the main house gets moss, lichens and no doubt loads of dirt trapped on it and that doesn't seem to bother me. But then I can't see that 2m from a bedroom window...

Edited September 24, 2020 by MJNewton

23 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

The issue with our coating was also a case of arguably-shoddy workmanship in areas (combined with a fussy customer who panics about everything but I'm not suggesting that's you here!).

 

Actually this whole GRP saga is literally sending me crazy. I've questioned if we are being picky, overreacting, being stupid but I'm confident it's none of these.

 

23 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

think you've had all the technical guidance you need already; all I would add is the advice not to let it consume you. I was really bothered by it - upset even - and just reading this thread reminded me how bad it was!

 

Yes, I am determined to get the fall put on the roof and the whole thing replaced. I'm just upset and angry that floor insulation has gone in and today the pipes were 50% laid for the UFH with that green plastic stuff on it so it's going to create issues now taking the whole bloody roof off to sort it out. But then I think we have made it clear since the coating went on we weren't happy so it's not our fault he has carried on regardless knowing this and if he had done a good job in the first place and subbed it out to someone who knew what they were doing we wouldn't have the problems we have got now. I'm sure he is going to try and wiggle out of it but I shall come here for advice. 

 

It's such a huge area it needs to be absolutely right.

 

@MJNewton I've read all your thread. If you had your time again would you have gone with ripping up the whole roof?

 

 

 

Can you have a secondary roof, with a fall, built over the original one?

Basically a large wedge of timber and OSB3.

4 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Can you have a secondary roof, with a fall, built over the original one?

Basically a large wedge of timber and OSB3.

 

Do you mean basically another roof over this one? Don't know, let me see what he proposes. I'm not going to agree to anything tomorrow until I've checked it out.....

30 minutes ago, canalsiderenovation said:

 

@MJNewton I've read all your thread. If you had your time again would you have gone with ripping up the whole roof?

 

Ha... Good question. To be honest I try not to dwell on it given we are where we are!

 

I seem to have got increasingly picky - obsessive in fact - about detail and perfection and I really don't like it. It takes the fun out of everything and makes me feel so anxious. This extension build has really exercised this affliction but to the point now where actually I *expect* things to go 'wrong' (to my picky eyes!), and can almost laugh about it when it does given how predictable it has become. My Dad's the same so it could be result of nature, if not nurture. I hasten to add though that the trades have long gone... this is now me screwing up. For example I haven't done the best job of the final decoration of our new family room - or at least in my mind I haven't. Everyone else thinks it's amazing. I'm not pleased though. That said, having inspected the plaster/paint finish on the rest of the existing house I've realised we've been living in a right state without knowing it and yet for some reason it never bothered me one bit, and doesn't now! A comment in an American decorating column talking about perfection really struck a chord with me - something along the lines of 'you stop focusing/worrying about something when its no longer the newest thing in the room', which when you substitute the right words for the particular situation you're in is really true I think.

 

Back to your question though; I am satisfied that our roof won't leak - or at least no sooner than anyone elses - and that's surely what matters given it's the sole job of the roof. My eye does get drawn to other people's flat roofs - even on drone shots on TV I find myself evaluating any flat roof I can see (and there's some shockers out there!) - so I think there's still a niggle in my mind about how mine stacks up against others. It also pleases me to see a small pool of water on someone elses roof and them seemingly being able to carry on with their lives. I don't regret not getting the whole thing ripped up and replaced. I think! It might be a bit different in my case as I am convinced the fall was just a mistake from a likeable, honest, respectable and otherwise competent builder. I can't bring myself to punish someone for that, but maybe I'm soft and not seeing it wouldn't actually be that happening.

Edited September 24, 2020 by MJNewton

27 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

It also pleases me to see a small pool of water on someone elses roof

 

You can sleep easy and compare it to the small lake we have on ours!

 

29 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

'you stop focusing/worrying about something when its no longer the newest thing in the room'

 

I like this! I think I'm going to get worse when it comes to first and second fix.

 

My dad has always been a perfectionist, although is not in the building trade (he's a mechanic), but he's done many diy jobs and I seem to expect everyone will take pride in their job like he does which is not the case!

So, bit of an update we met with the builder earlier on, just us and no distractions as @Nickfromwales suggested.

 

I had worded a strong email last night as well as sent pics on WhatsApp. We were both ready to take no crap, luckily it didn't come to that. Builder straight away admitted it was bad and he had trusted someone against his gut feelings and said he knew it should have had a fall on it and had seen it earlier on in the day before we did and realised how bad it looked. He said he had been worrying about it and knows it looks bad on him. He said he could go on but it's his responsibility and won't make any excuses and it's a bad job so first hurdle ☑️

 

 In terms of putting it right, this is what I want to check. Interestingly it mirrors what @SteamyTea mentioned about a secondary roof over the original one. His proposal to do this with new OSB with filings so creating a fall. The fall will then sort of be either side of the middle of the roof, almost like a pitch but obviously very slight, not like a pitched roof! Then the whole thing GRPd again, this time properly and getting the ideal weather

 

I think the issue in taking the whole roof off is that our UFH has been laid, flooring base is coming on Wednesday and it's all progressing because in 3 weeks Internorm are coming for the windows so I am presuming this is a way of not losing any time. 

 

Anything I should be worried about fitting a roof over a roof if it's done properly with a fall?

 

 

Good on the builder fir fessing up, I think his offer is a good one and won’t delay your programme. Must be a great weight off your mind ?