Kitchen Design - Divorce Pending

[Ralph]

We could really do with some input on the design of or kitchen. We've spent a lot of time with designers and we're not reaching a consensus.

 

As you can see from the attached we have an open plan design that also has the stairs in the room. My main concern is that the living area is too small at 3300 by 5975 and we've given too much of the space to the kitchen at 4825 x 5975, there is only the two of us, no kids. We also have a utility room at 4150 by 2250 for washer, dryer freezer etc.

 

What I think we should do is make the island smaller and move it too the right and lose a unit from the long wall. Giving us a 600 more in the living room.

 

On the attached the hob is in the wrong place, it would move to the island and we would put in floor to ceiling cabinets along the short wall and possibly round to the long one.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

PS As we get closer and closer to actually building this forum has been fantastic and I'm very glad it's here.

 

[ProDave]

The major issue I see is not so much the living room size, as too much window.

 

So assuming you put the sofa at the bottom of your drawing so it faces the windows to the top and the side, where are you going to put ANYTHING else e.g tv etc?

 

Model the room layout with all the furniture you want. and see how much room you actually need.

 

My inclination is put the dining table over by the windows and have the bottom portion of the room as living.

[Triassic]

Stairs in a kitchen? Is that even aloud? I assume you’ll need a fire door at the bottom? No doubt an expert will advise!?

[ToughButterCup]

6 minutes ago, Triassic said:

Stairs in a kitchen? Is that even allowed? [...]

 

If it isn't , we're stuffed.

 

30 minutes ago, Ralph said:

[...]

What [...] think we should do is make the island smaller and move it to the right and lose a unit from the long wall. Giving us a 600 more in the living room.

[...]

 

Work at it until you can insert ' we '  above.

 

I hate islands. She loves them. We put some boxes on the floor to represent all the elements of the kitchen. made a mock island too. Over a couple of weeks, I came to like the idea. She, the opposite. And that in an area almost exactly the same as yours with a huge window - same as yours and what I take as a mezzanine, same as yours.

 

Now, no island,  just simplicity instead. We ....

 

[Ferdinand]

I am going to take the dimensions of the footprint overall as a hard limit.

 

I am inclined to question all those small spaces at the rhs. In essence it is a plan of 2 halves ...ignoring the stairs,  4.5m x 6m on the rhs is services and circulation. 8.1m by 6m on the lhs is living, where you want to spend your time.

 

ie you are living in less than two thirds of your downstairs. 

 

I would try and create some space from the right before crunching about on the left. You want the space where you are going to spend your time.

 

I would say aim to transfer 10% of the space ie 1-1.2m to your living space, which will give you a lot more to work with within your existing footprint. Take a 1m slice out of the  I think that by losing the store, and allowing the space to go to the utility and bathroom whilst making them taller and narrower on plan, you can gain space for your kitchen-lounge whilst keeping the bath and utility almost the same size.

 

There is also an opportunity to gain perceived space by having some doors at the rhs at 45 degrees. I will need to sketch that, as I find it hard to explain.

 

On perception of space, I would also consider reversing the staircase, so that the volume above the lower stairs is in the lounge volume rather than hidden. That will add a perceived 1m at eye height.

 

Questions:

 

Hiw big does your lounge area actually need to be? what will you be doing in it? Is it one space or two spaces functionally?

Please can we see a site plan, with a north arrow?

Why does your porch need to be 7ft wide?

Does that have to be a downstairs bathroom? (I have one of those, and it is about to be turned into a shower so an elderly parent can move downstairs). A shower room could be smaller. A sliding or outward opening door would let you shrink it further whilst keeping circulation space. I would also look at a slider for the utility.

Is that store really necessary?

Have you stacked your washer and dryer in the utility to save a unit space?

Why does that outside door to the utility have to be so wide?

How is outside light going to get into the hall / corridor?

 

For the question you actually asked ?, I would agree with Dave wrt having the dining area at the top, or combine it with the island in a 2 level arrangement as some have here. Or, once you have your extra 1m in your living area, consider a mini L shape on the LH end, and have the dining area there.

 

If you can comment on the various qs, I will do a sketch to try and tease out my thoughts tomorrow.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited May 19, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Temp]

Think I agree. The porch, utility room and corridor seem wasteful.

 

Do you need a sink in the utility room. If there is a ground floor bathroom? Perhaps move something from kitchen in there?

[SteamyTea]

I have never understood why a sink is put under a window.  I wish my cooker was there (actually just lazyness in not redoing my kitchen) as it would make extraction dead simple.

I have a small house, and even though the living room is between the kitchen and stairs, noise and smells still get upstairs.

I hate islands, they just seem to get in the way.

I work in catering, and have done so, on and off for 40 years now, I am used to working in a small area and with minimum tools and gadgets.  I can cook most things on 2 burners, a small oven and a grill.  Wash and dry stuff as you cook, saves loads of space.

Just my opinion, and no partner living with me to please.

 

[Bitpipe]

10 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I have never understood why a sink is put under a window. 

 

 

We couldn't have the sink under the window as they are european style and open inwards, therefore the tap would be cleaved off

 

So we nudged it along about half a metre and it works great.

 

Was at my mates place the other day, he'd just had his kitchen done and had a similar arrangement - looked fine.

 

Agree with many of the comments above. Your utility does not need a window and a door. Suggest flipping the sink to the wall to its right, make the window the external door and moving the kitchen wall to the right.

 

I think it would be nice to walk into the kitchen from the porch door vs having to execute a series of 90 degree turns to drop off shopping etc.

[newhome]

37 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

We couldn't have the sink under the window as they are european style and open inwards, therefore the tap would be cleaved off

 

 

Sadly we didn't think about that until too late! Had a nightmare getting a modern tap that was low enough that the window didn't hit it! Cost a bloody fortune to get one that I liked lol but it was still a compromise as most of the ones I liked were too tall! 

[Ralph]

Loads of interesting comments, great stuff.  Attached is the full plan of the ground floor.

 

The site is long with views to the north.

 

It's not a big house but enough for the two of us, most of the time we will be in the lounge area although we have a small sitting room upstairs. 

 

I like the suggestion of stealing some space from the utility, we have a reasonable sized one for dogs and coming in from fields etc but we could make it a bit smaller. It also has the back door. We do need to keep the store for HW tank and secure cabinet. 

 

Also moving the dining area is also something we have thought of.

 

"how big does your lounge need to be?" That really is the crux of the question for us. We're trying to keep the overall sqm down but what do you think a reasonable size is for a lounge in an open plan area?

 

Thanks everyone

 

 

[Triassic]

1 hour ago, AnonymousBosch said:

If it isn't , we're stuffed. 

I assume you have an alternative means of escape from the upper floor rooms, as per Building Regs

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fire-safety-approved-document-b

[ProDave]

You will solve the "how big" issue if you draw some furniture on there and try moving it about.

 

Re "we" agreeing on the kitchen.  When I pushed too hard on adding input to the kitchen design, the response was "who does most of the cooking?.  Do YOU want to do most of the cooking?"

 

[Ralph]

8 minutes ago, Triassic said:

I assume you have an alternative means of escape from the upper floor rooms, as per Building Regs

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fire-safety-approved-document-b

Oh yeah lots of big opening windows.

[Ian]

Just now, Ralph said:

Oh yeah lots of big opening windows.

Agreed. Not difficult to provide.

Here’s the regs quoted:

Emergency egress windows and external doors
2.8 Any window provided for emergency egress purposes and any external door provided for escape should comply with the following conditions:
a. the window should have an unobstructed openable area that is at least 0.33m2 and
at least 450mm high and 450mm wide (the route through the window may be at an angle rather than straight through). The bottom of the openable area should be not more than 1100mm above the floor; and
b. the window or door should enable the person escaping to reach a place free from danger from fire...”

[Ralph]

6 minutes ago, ProDave said:

You will solve the "how big" issue if you draw some furniture on there and try moving it about.

 

Re "we" agreeing on the kitchen.  When I pushed too hard on adding input to the kitchen design, the response was "who does most of the cooking?.  Do YOU want to do most of the cooking?"

 

Good point, time to break out sketch up again.

 

Well I do the cooking at the moment but once the new house is built someone is going to turn into a regular Mary Berry apparently. 

[Ralph]

Just now, Ian said:

Agreed. Not difficult to provide.

Here’s the regs quoted:

Emergency egress windows and external doors
2.8 Any window provided for emergency egress purposes and any external door provided for escape should comply with the following conditions:
a. the window should have an unobstructed openable area that is at least 0.33m2 and
at least 450mm high and 450mm wide (the route through the window may be at an angle rather than straight through). The bottom of the openable area should be not more than 1100mm above the floor; and
b. the window or door should enable the person escaping to reach a place free from danger from fire...”

All the bedrooms and the sitting room upstairs are compliant.  We had this before when selling a previous house, surveyor told us we would have to knock £25k off the asking price because our three bedroom was actually a two bedroom because one room did not have a compliant window. 

[ToughButterCup]

8 hours ago, Triassic said:

I assume you have an alternative means of escape from the upper floor rooms, as per Building Regs

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fire-safety-approved-document-b

 

2 fully opening (currently suicide) doors: which will soon be Juliettes .

[Ferdinand]

I've been playing with this plan, and it could imo be greatly improved by questioning a couple of the more fundamental design decisions.

 

How constrained are you to 6m on width? Is that a genuine hard constraint (eg is your plot 7m wide?)?

 

Let me try and explain. I know what I mean, but we think in different styles.

 

Your plan is 6m x 12m inside, and that is a sod of a  slightly awkward shape to work with for a modern design without getting quirky. That is the classic proportions for a small play-school house - a door and 4 windows, entered from the middle of the long side, with a hall in the middle and room each side, with a kitchen and staircase and other bits where they fit round that. 

 

But, you are trying to get a modern "wide at the back" style layout into it sideways.

 

So you have ended up with service rooms that feel relatively large, and a lounge-diner that you are concerned may be cramped. And the symptom is that it feels too tight for a island, and you are here for a reassurance check. (It is good to be checking.)

 

It is all made more difficult because you have divided your plan into 2 even narrower spaces by having a de facto corridor 1.2m wide all the way down the middle - so *all* of your spaces, except for one, are automatically limited to being 2.4m (8 feet) deep. And that is a heck of a limitation, and imposes a grid feel, from the start.

 

That is why, I suggest, your utility feels long and narrow, rather than square.

 

The long and narrow feel of the whole plan is exasperated by the lengthways island. Not, I think, the impression it needs in the current layout. Classically in garden design, for example, you would divide a long, thin garden into garden-rooms across the plot - not put a straight path down the middle. Same issue.

 

You feel as if you can't fit an island in, because it won't fit without heavily compromising everything else !

 

But the underlying issue is not the size of the island or lounge; imo it is the limitations imposed on those by the basic size and layout of the floorplan. Essentially as I see you are trying to get a Oliver Hardy into Stan Laurel’s trousers, and the best solution is either to change the trousers, or change the person. Or something will chafe.

 

For a specific example, 6m (lounge) is not wide enough for 2 equal activity zones; it is one space. And if there are 2 people you will always need the possibility (otherwise you will end up with a repurposed spare bedroom or a garden room or lose your upstairs snug to an office/hobby). eg If you have a TV end or a study end, that will need at least 2m (eg small Ikea 2 seat sofa), and your other half of the room then becomes cramped as a relaxing area.

 

How to get around it?

 

If it is a genuine hard constraint, then it can be worked with, but I think the easiest way to improve the liveability of the plan would be to make it say 7m or 8m x 10m, rather than 6m x 12m , or perhaps wider in part. Everything would then become a bit more relaxed to plan. And you would have more space for an island and a more generous (and flexible) lounge.

 

Can you, for example, make it wider (if only in part) by building up to a boundary?

 

Otherwise we are imo into playing with disrupting that central corridor to give you more practical spaces, and thinking carefully about the lounge. Which can all be done, but I needed to ask the fundamental questions first. And finding ways to create spaces deeper than 2.4m.

 

hat is normal for a refurbed house, but new ones are better with the constraint designed out.

 

Sorry. Around here questions often turn into cans of worms . They sometimes even turn out to be useful cans of worms.

 

(If you confirm that 6m x 12m is a hard constraint, I will add a few notes later).

 

Ferdinand

Edited May 20, 2019 by Ferdinand

[ProDave]

^^ As above

 

Our house is 7M by 11M  It is entrance and stairs in the middle.  Right hand half is the kitchen / diner front to back.  Left hand half is utility room at the front and snug living room at the back.

 

The two living spaces open onto the central hall with double doors so they can be open to make it all one big space, or closed if you want quiet (e.g you both want to watch something different on tv)

 

Why do you want a downstairs bathroom?  WC is all you need and we have that in the utility room (I admit that is not to everyones taste)

[Ferdinand]

11 hours ago, Ralph said:

"how big does your lounge need to be?" That really is the crux of the question for us. We're trying to keep the overall sqm down but what do you think a reasonable size is for a lounge in an open plan area?

 

That's a good, question, @Ralph. And it is a good time to ask it. But in the end you have to define "reasonable" yourselves.

 

My suggestion to answer it would be to consider:

 

1 - What have you done in the past month that will take place in your new lounge? Write a list. The variety of activity is important here, not the frequency. What, for example, will happen if one of you wants a 5000 piece jigsaw out for a fortnight, or somewhere to work from home?

2 - Especially consider when you have done several things at the same time.

3 - Then do the "cut out cardboard furniture and arrange" thing, considering the things on your list, or ideally take it to lots of friends' places with different sized lounges, AirBnBs, or whatever, and play house.

4 - Then sit down with a bottle and think.

 

(Or you can get Sarah Beeny and her magic LCD floor, but they are expensive - both Sarah Beeny and the floor).

 

Sticking my neck out, IMO it is especially important that spaces exist within the house where a couple can be separate when required, without feeling pushed out.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

OK. Try these for size. The best I can do without impinging on client time this week.

 

Here is your original.

 

 

Here the one with what I said above. In particular:

 

- The lounge is now 6m x 6m, with the dining bit bitten out of one corner. Enough space to play with.

 

- Kitchen turned into a C plan. Plenty of storage with an island the same size as a normal kitchen table = 1200 x 900. I would make the island suitable for 4 or 6 x bar stools for more formal dining ( @jackdoes this kind of thing). I have used the "sit in the 'corridor'" trick; if you are sitting on the stool you do not need the circulation space. There is still 600mm to walk past anyway when the stools are out. I would also make it a surface suitable for major cooking sessions.

 

 - Hob on peninsula unit for social cooking. Peninsula 900 wide so space for 4x breakfast bar should you need. under 300mm overhang. Keep 4 stools there, and 2 under island. Sink round corner for fridge -> worktop -> sink -> worktop -> cookers layout.

 

- Store has gone. I cannot see the point of having secure paper files in the same space as a huge water tank and umpteen water pipes. The water gubbins can be in the utility, the secure cabinet is under the stairs in the middle of the house.

 

- All the other spaces are functionally the same size, so no losses there.

 

- Put the utility room and hall door where you like.

 

- The angled wall with the full height mirror is important for making the entrance interesting - so you get a glance out of the big window.

 

- I have flipped the stairs so that the understairs can be in the porch for bikes and gubbins. Also improves space in lounge. Secure store is under stairs - I would make it 750 deep with bifolds, to fit a filing cab or custom unit inside.

 

- The layout around the porch and hall is still a little clunky - needs some playing with.

 

- Windows need reorganising.

 

 

And a blank for anyone else to play with.

 

 

Just a few more things to say later.

 

Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

Final notes:

 

If you want to play around with this footprint more it will need to be things like moving your central corridor off-centre .. even right against a wall, thinking about a single flight staircase against one outside wall, perhaps move the door to the end etc.

 

Personally, I would strongly recommend getting some input from an architect .. perhaps only one or two days, to give you a different angle. This footprint seems to me to be ‘fragile’, in the sense that the division between “excellent” and “difficult to live in” is quite narrow. As it is a 250k build, 500-1000 on getting it to be as good as you can will be a good investment.

 

Best of luck.

 

F

 

 

[Bitpipe]

For me, I'd start with the light.

 

Morning light from East, evening light from West, constant light from South and 'flat' light from north.

 

The current design does not have much East light, mainly in the porch and some in the dining window, However there is a lot of North glazing.

 

Means your living / kitchen area could be a bit dull in the mornings but brighter in evenings. 

 

 

[bassanclan]

By the sounds of things you are struggling to understand the dimensions you really want. I would recommend going to look at some show houses with similar kitchen areas so you can get an idea if the meterage is what you need and want

[caliwag]

You probably know some of my hobbyhorses! I think a generous bay window (off the so-called dining space) could be a breakfast space/casual eating/hobby/workplace benefiting from the the morning sun and view to front door. I agree there seems to be too many windows in the living space, creating overheating issues (facing West) as well as where to put furniture to make it cosy (if that's your bag)

 

Kitchen islands are useful but should be oval in plan to my mind. (to avoid banging hips) You know my views on sinks under windows...in the flat we had I had to climb on the sink to open the window, so a juliette balcony was installed and sink moved sideways! Immeasurable improvement.

 

Kitchen layouts are very subjective, but there never seems to be enough storage for daily kit. I favour a 300mm deep unit, as wide as you like, full height, open or doored (glazed or whatever),double sided access if desirable, perhaps with a coffee station built in mini worktop, to  store/get rid of the favourite daily pots, china, cutlery, spices...you list whatever you need. This unit could even be on casters (am I being silly now?)

 

I think stairs off the kitchen are allowed if to only one other floor, not an attic...while since I've been involved in regs...mind, kitchen smells might be an issue.

 

I could go on, but that's my first thoughts...it is all very personal surely