VHS or BETAMAX the battle of two technologies relived.

[MikeSharp01]

I had a conversation with my brother yesterday - he has just invested in some electric vans for his team to use in the new London low emmission zone (it appears a no brainer as the fleet hire and electric cost is less than the zone charges after about the first two weeks of the month - some incentive that!) Anyway we chatted about the vying power technologies and wondered if we are not in a VHS vs BETAMAX situation where the energy density by weight of Hydrogen (BETAMAX) was loosing out to the much less energy dense battery technologies (VHS) perhaps all because of the cost of producing the hydrogen by one or other of the routes available. Suffice it to sat that we concluded that both these technologies are dead now so we might as well go with the flow and hope we live long enough to see the DVD of car power systems. The good old S curve strikes again! ?

[ProDave]

26 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

 Suffice it to sat that we concluded that both these technologies are dead now so we might as well go with the flow and hope we live long enough to see the DVD of car power systems. The good old S curve strikes again! ?

Don't you mean the HDDVD Blue Ray.....  

[Alexphd1]

Ah blue-ray that's a blast from the past ?

[ragg987]

I thought we were in the age of Netflix? I'm still in the past - good old blu-ray, good enough for my tired eyes.

 

I finally got my record player hooked up a week ago, it had been gathering dust since before our build, some 4 years. Who needs rice-crispies.

[SteamyTea]

Specific energy density of liquid hydrogen is 142 MJ/kg (HHV) and for Lithium Ion batteries it is 0.875 MJ/kg.

Volumetric Densities are 2,790 Wh/l for liquid hydrogen and 693 Wh/l for Lithium Ion.

It does, on the face of it, look like hydrogen is a winner, but if it was that simple, we would all be using it.

The problems come in when storing and converting hydrogen into electricity.  This adds a lot of mass to a vehicle.

 

As for old record players, most studio recordings, since the mid 1980's, have been recorded digitally.  So anyone claiming that a grooved record is a more honest sound, it talking rubbish.  Unless they like really old stuff, and the quality of that was pretty poor.

 

[ProDave]

Okay ignorant question.

 

Can Hydrogen be burned as the fuel for an IC engine?  All the talk I hear of hydrogen is using it in a fuel cell to make electricity to drive a motor.

[ragg987]

38 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

So anyone claiming that a grooved record is a more honest sound, it talking rubbish

I cannot argue with that as far as the medium is concerned, but mastering is a factor. LPs made prior to about the mid 1990s were not compressed as badly as CDs, and most new releases of old recordings (so called remasters) have been compressed to death and are not fun to listen to. So my record player still has a place. Don't have any VHS, though.

[jack]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

Can Hydrogen be burned as the fuel for an IC engine?  All the talk I hear of hydrogen is using it in a fuel cell to make electricity to drive a motor.

 

Aside from the practical difficulties and risks of using such an explosive substance as a fluid fuel source:

 

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a25712588/why-dont-we-burn-hydrogen-instead-of-gasoline/

 

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_internal_combustion_engine_vehicle

[AliG]

Hydrogen is an awful fuel source for cars today.

 

Only a small fraction of the energy actually gets to the car after accounting for losses in making the hydrogen, transporting the hydrogen and turning it back into electricity. I guess at some pointing the future if all electricity was renewable and cheap this wouldn't matter so much but by then batteries will be much better.

 

Electric motors are very very efficient and we already have a distribution system for electricity. What we don't have is enough chargers. One of the beauties of electricity is that it is already available pretty much everywhere. The cost to build a hydrogen distribution infrastructure would be crazy.

 

Yes it is more energy dense and you can refuel faster, but battery density will continue to improve and charging times come down. 98% of car journeys are under 50 miles, the average car in the UK does only around 8000 miles a year. In 18 months of owning a Tesla there has only been one trip I could have made where I would have had to charge it, but I took the train as I was too jet lagged to drive. All other charging should be done at home.

 

The government needs to mandate all new homes, particularly apartment building to have charging facilities. They already have electricity so adding this is a minor extra cost.

 

 

[MikeSharp01]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

Specific energy density of liquid hydrogen is 142 MJ/kg (HHV) and for Lithium Ion batteries it is 0.875 MJ/kg.

I guess that is the essential point Steamy - PS good to converse with you again.

[AliG]

Fuel cell cars would definitely be lighter, but in fairness you have to add the weight of the hydrogen tank and the fuel cell not just the hydrogen.

[K78]

I’ve been burnt too many times being a “early adopter”. Especially with TV’s and hifi.

 

I would not consider a EV or alternative until they are mainstream.

 

Im not convinced Tesla will be around in 10 years time and Saudi oil money owns every western government.

[AliG]

I'm not convinced Tesla will be around in 10 years either. So I bought the car on a PCP for the first time ever. Also a technological breakthrough could seriously devalue the car.

 

If you look at the current product pipelines for car companies though EVs are on the cusp of mainstream. Most car companies have slashed investment in ICE and an ever increasing proportion of new models will be EVs in the next 5 years.

 

In 5 years time an EV should have a lower cost of ownership in Europe than an ICE car. Although TBF this is due partly to lower taxes on electricity.

 

They are much nicer to drive, at cost parity, the only reason I would choose an ICE is if I drove large numbers of miles on a daily basis or had a very unpredictable schedule so needed the range.

[Jeremy Harris]

I share your concerns about Tesla.  Today's Model 3 fiasco has firmly crossed Tesla off my "next car" list.  Interestingly, Tesla seems to have a very strong fan club, and can do no wrong in their eyes.  Reminds me a bit of the way Apple users used to behave, during the Mac versus PC conflicts that seemed to arise from time to time.  The way Tesla have chopped and changed prices, specifications etc recently doesn't exactly fill me with confidence, neither do the antics of Elon Musk (I'm coming around to the view that he's more of a liability to TMC than an asset, now).

 

It looks like some of the bigger players are now going to all have 200 mile plus range EVs in the sub-£30k sector some time over the next 12 months or so.  VAG have the VW ID3 and Seat El Born out in the first quarter of 2020, Kia/Hyundai should have stable production of the Kona/ENiro by then, Polestar will have their (more expensive) Polestar 2 out in early 2020, Peugeot will have the smaller/cheaper e208 out around the same time, and Ford are rumoured to have teamed up with VAG to use the MEB platform for a new range coming out later in 2020.  All told it's going to be an interesting time, with a lot more choice being available for those who want to drive an electric car.

 

I have to say that once you've driven an electric car it would be really hard to go back to driving something with an ICE.  The combination of effortless driving, instant torque and smooth, near silent, driving is really hard to beat.

[K78]

I disagree about the nicer to drive bit. I love my cars and that’s where most of my money has gone all my adult life. 

 

The one good car investment I made (not knowingly) was a gt4. Really regret selling it but circumstances dictated it had to go. Biggest hit I took was on a alfa Brera. 

 

I know I will have to make the change one day though. The rate at technology is advancing EV’s are getting better quicker than I expected. 

[K78]

3 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

I share your concerns about Tesla.  Today's Model 3 fiasco has firmly crossed Tesla off my "next car" list.  Interestingly, Tesla seems to have a very strong fan club, and can do no wrong in their eyes.  Reminds me a bit of the way Apple users used to behave, during the Mac versus PC conflicts that seemed to arise from time to time.  The way Tesla have chopped and changed prices, specifications etc recently doesn't exactly fill me with confidence, neither do the antics of Elon Musk (I'm coming around to the view that he's more of a liability to TMC than an asset, now).

 

It looks like some of the bigger players are now going to all have 200 mile plus range EVs in the sub-£30k sector some time over the next 12 months or so.  VAG have the VW ID3 and Seat El Born out in the first quarter of 2020, Kia/Hyundai should have stable production of the Kona/ENiro by then, Polestar will have their (more expensive) Polestar 2 out in early 2020, Peugeot will have the smaller/cheaper e208 out around the same time, and Ford are rumoured to have teamed up with VAG to use the MEB platform for a new range coming out later in 2020.  All told it's going to be an interesting time, with a lot more choice being available for those who want to drive an electric car.

 

I have to say that once you've driven an electric car it would be really hard to go back to driving something with an ICE.  The combination of effortless driving, instant torque and smooth, near silent, driving is really hard to beat.

 

Wouldn’t surprise me if apple buy Tesla. Imagine the queues for a i-car. 

[Pocster]

Crumbs !

vhs vs beta that’s fighting talk .

As far as I’m aware Betamax was technically superior but more major titles on VHS .

Bit like MSX vs the world ( old computer format ) . MSX lost ?

[AliG]

Are you referring to the surprisingly high price @JSHarris?

 

I have seen some analysis that people have done. Based on the price of the Model S/X I would have guessed around £37,000 for the SR+ I was at around £35,000 before they added forced autopilot purchase. It seems that they are charging more of a premium for the 3 than the S/X in Europe.

 

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by AliG

[AliG]

6 minutes ago, K78 said:

I disagree about the nicer to drive bit. I love my cars and that’s where most of my money has gone all my adult life. 

 

The one good car investment I made (not knowingly) was a gt4. Really regret selling it but circumstances dictated it had to go. Biggest hit I took was on a alfa Brera. 

 

I know I will have to make the change one day though. The rate at technology is advancing EV’s are getting better quicker than I expected. 

 

I am talking like for like cars. I actually have a 911 C4S (991 model) and drive it a lot less since I got the Tesla. Whilst it is faster on paper it requires a lot more effort and just feels old fashioned. Clearly it handles better and drives like a go cart due to being smaller and lighter.

 

My Model X is way better to drive than my previous similarly sized Range Rover Sport mainly due to no diesel engine. Ride/handling is similar.

[K78]

4 minutes ago, AliG said:

 

I am talking like for like cars. I actually have a 911 C4S (991 model) and drive it a lot less since I got the Tesla. Whilst it is faster on paper it requires a lot more effort and just feels old fashioned. Clearly it handles better and drives like a go cart due to being smaller and lighter.

 

My Model X is way better to drive than my previous similarly sized Range Rover Sport mainly due to no diesel engine. Ride/handling is similar.

 

991 is nice. Porsche prices have gone crazy over the last few years. Out of my price range now unfortunately. 

 

Model X makes the most sense of all the Tesla’s imo. 

[Jeremy Harris]

13 minutes ago, AliG said:

Are you referring to the surprisingly high price @JSHarris?

 

I have seen some analysis that people have done. Boded on the price of the Model S/X I would have guessed around £37,000 for the SR+ I was at around £35,000 before they added forced autopilot purchase. It seems that they are charging more of a premium for the 3 than the S/X in Europe.

 

 

 

Yes, Tesla choosing to price the only M3 available in the UK at well over the £40k luxury VED threshold seems a bad move to me, especially as they had made such a song and dance about the M3 being a "$30,000" car (hell of a joke that one).  I think many thought the M3 was going to be around £35k to £37k, but £42.4k is taking the mickey (all UK list price, rather than price after PICG, as that's what really matters, IMHO).  Buyers who sell after a year aren't going to care much about the luxury VED rate, but owners for years 2 to 4 probably are, as it adds £1.6k on to the running cost over that time.

[scottishjohn]

I would prefer hydrogen cell fuelling  an IC engine to make electric --

but bottom line,  too expensive at this time to make hydrogen 

I think they oil companies held its development  back long enough to kill it in reality ,so they must be buying all the lithium deposits on the quiet -.

once we get orbital manufacturing and endless free very strong solar --things might change for battery tech,PV panel production  and hydrogen 

lots of things are easier to make in a vacum  and zero gravity with endless free power.

by that time you,ll be able to go sub-orbital to Australia in 4 hrs?

 but ,ll be dead by then 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

3 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

by that time you,ll be able to go sub-orbital to Australia in 4 hrs?

 but ,ll be dead by then 

 

 

As Elon Musk has said:

 

Quote

"The advantage of getting somewhere in 30 mins by rocket instead of 15 hours by plane will be negatively affected if “but also, you might die” is on the ticket."

 

[PeterW]

3 hours ago, K78 said:

 

Wouldn’t surprise me if apple buy Tesla. Imagine the queues for a i-car. 

 

... or the people having to buy new charging cables every 6 months as the ends fell off ...

[Onoff]

15 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 

... or the people having to buy new charging cables every 6 months as the ends fell off ...

 

Or when it starts going slower and to get a new OS you need to buy a whole new car!