Back boxes and noggins (these are a few of my favourite things)

[ToughButterCup]

On this thread , reading between the lines, it would appear that it's common for self builders to get back boxes and noggins ( and whiskers on kittens) in the ' wrong' place(s). 

 

I do not want to pee my sparky off. (so far the only trade to do exactly what was agreed on time on budget, no moaning no fuss) 

 

Help me sparkies, please. 

 

How best should I fit the noggins?

 

What are the noggin-gotchas? 

 

What are the back box buggerits? 

 

If there's a back box Oh-FFS, then I wanna know please. 

 

It's be-kind-to-a-sparky day today. ?

[joe90]

I am not a sparky but on my sparks instructions I put noggins/dwangs (whatever) between verticals for metal back boxes to be screwed too , bit of 3x2 on edge so the box is deep enough to just be flush with plaster finish (15mm proud of studding).

[scottishjohn]

first thing use deep boxs not the thin ones if using metal --

sparkies hate those slim ones

just work out depth of box and have top edge of box inside plaster board thickness --then you keep your plaster man happy as well 

and fix noggins well and square to wall-

you know all this 

[CC45]

• height between 450mm above floor to the bottom of the box &
• 1200mm to the top of the upper box. 
• I don't put them any closer than 150mm from corners. 
• Decent size noggins so you have some wiggle room;
• screw inplace. 47mm back boxes - easy wiring guaranteed.
• Leave the box out slightly from the timber frame etc so when boarded it sits back slightly from the boards. 
• They take some time to do for a whole house...... 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by recoveringacademic
edited (insert bullet points) to aid readability

[joe90]

Just a note, my plasterer wanted the front edge of the metal back box nearly level with the finished plaster otherwise he said the plaster could crack around the hole when fixing the front plate.

[Bitpipe]

10 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Just a note, my plasterer wanted the front edge of the metal back box nearly level with the finished plaster otherwise he said the plaster could crack around the hole when fixing the front plate.

 

Yep, I recall my back boxes protruded about 2-3 mm - guess they were set 15mm, allowing for 12.5mm board.

[PeterW]

Don’t forget if you’re having

• a row of boxes, or boxes above and below each other then you need a decent spacing. 35mm is good -
• happens to be the depth of a back box too so spacing is simple ...
• Just make sure the noggins and socket locations have enough space for them

 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by recoveringacademic
edited to aid readability

[Oz07]

If boarding vertically then keep your noggins in studwork 1200 off floor then he won't be beavering any for light switches 

[Bitpipe]

My sparky used a laser level, or two of them, to lay out back boxes downlights, everything basically. Means everything is dead level and consistent.

 

Then again he had his own chop saw and used proper timber for his noggins vs what was lying in the skip.

 

Remember to allow for finished floor level when measuring.

 

Also, remember to put in support for wall hung TVs etc while you're doing the noggins, ducts for AV cables etc - anything you want to hide away behind an appliance.

 

Finally, if you're doing noggins for sinks, mirrors etc - do check where the actual fitting are on those. 

 

We put in massive noggins for the bathroom vanity sinks but I didn't see that the actual fittings were on the unit below, not the sink itself so we only just snagged the noggin when fitting.

 

And then mark up all heights and distances of noggins from a fixed point with a sharpie, nice and big, and photograph every inch - you'll be coming back to that when you have a nicely plastered wall and want to find a noggin or avoid drilling into a pipe or cable.

[joe90]

Support even for toilet roll holders!!!

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, scottishjohn said:

[...]

and fix noggins well and square to wall- you know all this 

 

John, one day we'll meet. And then you'll know.

You'll politely shake your head, and go away muttering dark scottish things under your breath.

[scottishjohn]

1 minute ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

John, one day we'll meet. And then you'll know.

You'll politely shake your head, and go away muttering dark scottish things under your breath.

LOL

 

[joe90]

2 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

you know all this

 

None of us knew all this “once upon a time”, personally I have thoroughly enjoyed the learning curve ? and this forum is a brilliant way for knowledge to be shared, all hail the forum ?

[scottishjohn]

56 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

My sparky used a laser level, or two of them, to lay out back boxes downlights, everything basically. Means everything is dead level and consistent.

 

Then again he had his own chop saw and used proper timber for his noggins vs what was lying in the skip.

 

Remember to allow for finished floor level when measuring.

 

Also, remember to put in support for wall hung TVs etc while you're doing the noggins, ducts for AV cables etc - anything you want to hide away behind an appliance.

 

Finally, if you're doing noggins for sinks, mirrors etc - do check where the actual fitting are on those. 

 

We put in massive noggins for the bathroom vanity sinks but I didn't see that the actual fittings were on the unit below, not the sink itself so we only just snagged the noggin when fitting.

 

And then mark up all heights and distances of noggins from a fixed point with a sharpie, nice and big, and photograph every inch - you'll be coming back to that when you have a nicely plastered wall and want to find a noggin or avoid drilling into a pipe or cable.

when in doubt fit a big  lump of  plywood  dwanged to the studs  in the approx area behind plaster board  where i think things will be --plenty of room for mistakes then  ,

or should I say people changing their mind  on exact fittings--

 

got to hand to the rough arse builder who built my present timber frame in late 70,s --the studs  inside+ out were all covered in osb,closed panel sysytem  -

you can fit anything anywhere --

pity he didn,t take as much care with filling them with insulation 

down side  is its  a bit of a bugger to fit drywall boxs in new  places on exterior walls ,  cos its too thick  , cos plasterboard is 15/16mm + thickness of osb  

[SiBee]

Sound advice above but this may be useful to consider. I would be worried about marking out everything using a Sharpie (other marker pens are available too). You can get bleed through over time. Paint yes and maybe through plaster. Sometimes we over look the obvious.

 

I once worked for an aerospace company which produced large aluminium panels. these got some form of etched coating after various stages of cleaning and then sprayed white. During the early stages of forming, the tin bashers would highlight defects to be worked on with big circles using marker pens. These marks eventually got removed with an approved chemical wipe (triac substitute) before the cleaning process.

Fast forward months  and a customer complaint came in regarding the cock and balls someone had drawn under the paint on the side of a new plane. It was a big deal. Turns out that the tin bashers markings had bled through and it was unfortunate that the panels once fitted, made the shape of a cock and balls. The reason why I was nearly flung out of the factory on my first day- I pulled out a marker to draw a guide line on a wall. No one told me that markers where banned and this story was the reason given for the ban. It was in Wigan so I never doubted☺️ 

[Onoff]

Don't know how you're doing your noggins...staggered? You can do on these lines:

 

 

If fitting pb vertically you don't have to worry about the boards ending halfway over a noggin. Drill drop down holes in noggins if you think you might want lower (or higher) sockets in the future. If you think you won't how about say a high level socket for a wall mount tv later etc. Same going horizontal if you want. If filling stud with fluffy insulation you can still pretty easily thread cables through at a later date if you want an extra socket.

 

 

[ToughButterCup]

6 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

 

 

 

Perfik Rodders. Perfik.

[Onoff]

18 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

Perfik Rodders. Perfik.

 

Seen before a fairly thin "socket noggin" with a socket either side, one in each room. Imo a crap idea as in noise and fire transmission route...

 

Are these internal walls? You could go mad and run pvc conduit to save pushing aside insulation later...20mm round pokes nicely into a back box knockout with no need for a grommet.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Onoff

[ToughButterCup]

2 minutes ago, Onoff said:

[...] Are these internal walls? [...]

 

Yes.

Whats more clear than it was before, I have to plan as much as I can: there's no excuse for sleep anymore. 

[Onoff]

Seems a reasonable link if you're wondering about prescribed zones for cables:

 

https://www.flameport.com/wiring_regulations/BS7671_selected_subjects/zones_concealed_cables.cs4

[Bitpipe]

1 hour ago, SiBee said:

Sound advice above but this may be useful to consider. I would be worried about marking out everything using a Sharpie (other marker pens are available too). You can get bleed through over time. Paint yes and maybe through plaster. Sometimes we over look the obvious.

 

I marked out on the vapour barrier and or batten before the plasterboard went on, pretty sure it won't bleed through that but good advice! 

[ProDave]

Okay I may be in the minority here, but do your really, I mean really, want steel back boxes?  Have you considered plastic plasterboard boxes?

 

I have only a handful of steel back boxes and for specific reasons. The vast majority I use are plasterboard boxes.

 

PB boxes have a bad reputation, and I am the first to admit, some designs are utterly rubbish. But buy Appleby plasterboard boxes and you won't have any trouble with them.

 

My philisophy:  For sockets run cables horizontally around the room at socket height, in the safe zone created by the socket.  Leave some slack in each end of the cable but don't cut the box holes, yet.  Then when you are ready, you know you can cut holes for the back boxes and fit sockets anywhere along the entire wall.  The only caveat being you must fit at least 1 socket somewhere or else you won't have the safe zone for the cable.

[ToughButterCup]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Okay I may be in the minority here, but do your really, I mean really, want steel back boxes?  Have you considered plastic plasterboard boxes?

[...]

 

How do I know what I want until I hear what you, @Onoff @JSHarris  @Bitpipe, @jamiehamy, and others whose technical competence I have come to know and trust say?

(Not forgetting SWMBO ? )

 

I'm sure you mean the word  ' ... considered ... ' respectfully Dave. But in my case, anything electrical is a known unknown as well as an unknown unknown. This is the guy who merrily drills into a wall and wonders - months later - why a light no longer works.

 

[ProDave]

Weil I put it to the panel why would you NOT use a good quality plasterboard box like Appleby?

[ToughButterCup]

My tortured finger configuration ? ..... 8 left, of which about 6 have feeling in them (varies a bit each day). I have heard the argument that there is more space in those metal ones....