Swellable water bar

[Jeremy Harris]

9 minutes ago, Big Neil said:

Would it work as an element of say a peel and stick building wrap, so: Peel layer (throw away) - sticky bit - airtightness membrane - waterbar type material - then another peel off layer?

 

I've seen it used for basement waterproofing, as a layer applied on the outside of a basement wall.  IIRC, the stuff used was either Bentonite or something that looked very similar and was sprayed on to the membrane on the outside of the walls. 

 

The stuff has been used for decades for waterproofing, arguably it's been used for hundreds, maybe thousands, of years, given that the use of clay that expands when it gets wet, to form a water proof barrier, has so many applications in civil engineering.

[ToughButterCup]

3 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

[...]

given that the use of clay that expands when it gets wet, to form a water proof barrier, has so many applications in civil engineering.

 

The canal outside our house is drained periodically.

My God does it leak during the refill phase, and then, magically (as it were) re-seals itself.

[Big Neil]

THanks @JSHarris. Is it another one of those products which one could use if going with a belt 'n' Braces approach, much like using rebar even though it might not be needed? 

 

I started thinking of the stuff in the link below in terms of repelling water. Is there a house based application for this?

 

 

[ToughButterCup]

Is this the stuff that coats the hands of the average 9 year old little boy?

[Big Neil]

15 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

Is this the stuff that coats the hands of the average 9 year old little boy?

no idea what you mean? 

[ToughButterCup]

1 minute ago, Big Neil said:

no idea what you mean? 

 

I'm sure in the case of the average 9 year old boy, that its a selective perception issue.

 

My hands dirty? What, mine? Sure? Water? Soap? Why?

[Ferdinand]

.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Ferdinand

[scottishjohn]

25 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

The canal outside our house is drained periodically.

My God does it leak during the refill phase, and then, magically (as it were) re-seals itself.

  LOL

don,t think there is much chance of   BC ever passing clay  water proofing ,even as you say it has been used on canals and aqueducts for thousands of years

[PeterW]

24 minutes ago, Big Neil said:

THanks @JSHarris. Is it another one of those products which one could use if going with a belt 'n' Braces approach, much like using rebar even though it might not be needed? 

 

I started thinking of the stuff in the link below in terms of repelling water. Is there a house based application for this?

 

 

 

Only if you have pockets that are very deep and very large ..!! Aerogel is eyewatering in price and only really used for insulation of complex or high end systems - think NASA..! It is available as a standard insulation but from memory it’s £100/m2 or more. 

[Ferdinand]

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Edited February 16, 2019 by Ferdinand

[ToughButterCup]

1 minute ago, PeterW said:

Only if you have pockets that are very deep and very large [...] but from memory it’s £100/m2 or more. 

 

Thats interesting.

Even at that price, how might it be useful for a self build?

[PeterW]

Idea for wrapping steels etc so you get the thinnest insulation possible and don’t make steels huge. 

[PeterW]

@JSHarris @Nickfromwales Didn’t SunAmp look at using Aerogel in their units instead of the VIPs on the side panels ..??

[Ferdinand]

12 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

Thats interesting.

Even at that price, how might it be useful for a self build?

 

One application I may see would be to protect original material walls that might get splashed by a shower, or above a splash back where a sink is against a stone wall.

 

(Talking about the aerogel).

 

Maybe.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Gone West]

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

Bentonite or similar expanding clays can also used to waterproof basement walls, by putting a layer of the stuff around the outside, before the backfill.

I used Bentonite around the inlet and outlet pipes on my sewage treatment plant because they were just sealed by rubber grommets. The water table is high enough around here at times for the hydro static pressure to force water past the seal. It is extremely effective at keeping water out even with a relatively thin layer.

[Jeremy Harris]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

@JSHarris @Nickfromwales Didn’t SunAmp look at using Aerogel in their units instead of the VIPs on the side panels ..??

 

 

I've not heard anything about them using aerogel, but it would seem a reasonably good application for it, as the high cost wouldn't be such an issue given the relatively small amount of insulation needed around the heat cell.

[Russell griffiths]

3 hours ago, willbish said:

The Supercast SW10 is 5mm x 20mm

 

What sort of giant water bar were they using?

 

No idea it poked out of the slab a good 75-80 mm

[jamiehamy]

I've had a look through my emails for some info.

 

I contacted these guys a while back - found them very helpful. http://www.scpwaterproofing.com/index.html

 

I may still use the Dual Seal membrane on the underground section of the garage walls - and a combination on the join between wall and slab.

 

I also contacted another firm up here that specialised in this type of thing - they had suggested a special DPM that was laid and would effectively bond to the concrete and lap up round the edges of the slab. I was too late to use that, but that was their business and they said if you don't prepare early enough, then the other options are all second best (they would say that?!).

 

You can see on this website that the water bars are not really suitable for a slab/wall join - I doubt any builder in the world could lay the seal, build the ICF to the required heigh and have it all poured in the dry.

 

Waterproofing - it's a world of its' own!

[mvincentd]

Look beyond swellable water bar and there should be something viable.

Attached is a pic of my slab with rebar rising out of it ready to tie into the concrete walls.  There just so happens to be an upstand in my design but thats neither here nor there for the purpose of this conversation.  The top of the upstand has aggregate exposed as a result of retarder being applied to that surface at the end of the pour (to me it makes sense to do this to the area you'd pour your icf walls onto but i've not seen it mentioned much amongst 'ICFers').  Rising out of the centre of that surface is a flat metal strip, as much of which is buried in the concrete.  This was placed before the slab pour along with the rebar.  It's a Sika product but right now I cant find it's name.  I have the Sikaswell red bars at vertical joints so maybe it's because of the pre-wetting risk that they don't use it on the longer exposed slab.  While mine wasn't icf I see no reason it wouldn't work, except if the plastic icf webs might crush it.

 

[jamiehamy]

Very odd coincidence yesterday, was walking a friends dog and came across a new build in progress. Founds were in and lo, it was an icf build! I asked the chap what product and he said it was Logix. We didn't chat long but he knew the crew I had for our build. We talked briefly about tanking since it was being built into a hill and he said I should come back one afternoon but he had to get in and install the water bar before it rained... What's the chances?! 

[Onoff]

Water bar...who knew, never heard of them before now. Before this my thought would have been, if anything, that there's something in a can you coat the join with before the next pour.

 

Everyday's a school day!

 

[willbish]

On 15/02/2019 at 14:55, jamiehamy said:

 

I contacted these guys a while back - found them very helpful. http://www.scpwaterproofing.com/index.html

Thanks for the recommendation. I have had some worthwhile advice from these guys too and have decided to use a bentonite waterstop in combination with the Duel Seal membrane.

Regarding keeping the cavity dry. I will allow the water to drain out through some weep holes and have been reassured that some moisture in the cavity isnt going to affect the ability of the waterstop.

 

 

On 15/02/2019 at 22:49, mvincentd said:

Look beyond swellable water bar and there should be something viable. 

Attached is a pic of my slab with rebar rising out of it ready to tie into the concrete walls.  There just so happens to be an upstand in my design but thats neither here nor there for the purpose of this conversation.  The top of the upstand has aggregate exposed as a result of retarder being applied to that surface at the end of the pour (to me it makes sense to do this to the area you'd pour your icf walls onto but i've not seen it mentioned much amongst 'ICFers').  Rising out of the centre of that surface is a flat metal strip, as much of which is buried in the concrete.  This was placed before the slab pour along with the rebar.  It's a Sika product but right now I cant find it's name.  I have the Sikaswell red bars at vertical joints so maybe it's because of the pre-wetting risk that they don't use it on the longer exposed slab.  While mine wasn't icf I see no reason it wouldn't work, except if the plastic icf webs might crush it.

Yes agree. I think the metal upstand looks a good idea for ICF. Pity it is too late for my build.

 

 

I'm thankful that where I've overlooked this detail it hasn't caused me too much of a headache. Fortunately Im only retaining 0.7m

[willbish]

On 17/02/2019 at 08:50, jamiehamy said:

Very odd coincidence yesterday, was walking a friends dog and came across a new build in progress. Founds were in and lo, it was an icf build! I asked the chap what product and he said it was Logix. We didn't chat long but he knew the crew I had for our build. We talked briefly about tanking since it was being built into a hill and he said I should come back one afternoon but he had to get in and install the water bar before it rained... What's the chances?! 

 

Someone with actual Logix blocks. They must've ordered last summer!

...13 weeks and counting here