disappointed of lincolnshire Sunamp - new label showing only C rated energy efficiency

[Ed Davies]

Is this an additional argument for the external Willis-style heater as that'd make it an A^* rated heat store instead of a C rated heater? Just shows how bloody silly these ratings are.

[newhome]

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

The manual is accessible online, as well as being supplied with the unit, although I can't seem to find it on the Sunamp website

 

Here's the link from the Sunamp domain

https://www.sunamp.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/UniQ-manual-20180719-V2.2.pdf

 

 

 

[newhome]

29 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 

He does but loses one point as that back right compression tee isn’t lined up with the one in front of it like the rest .... compression nuts look about 3mm out of line .... 

 

He will likely blame Will for that  

[Onoff]

2 hours ago, Barney12 said:

Here’s my two side by side after @Nickfromwales and his faithful assistant Will finished their handiwork.

 

 

All you've got to do now is paint the walls behind to get rid of all those pencil marks and it'll look pucker.

 

[newhome]

9 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

All you've got to do now is paint the walls behind to get rid of all those pencil marks and it'll look pucker.

 

 

How's the tiling going ... 

[Onoff]

1 minute ago, newhome said:

 

How's the tiling going ... 

 

The 2 & 3-port valve replacements took precedence this week!

[PeterW]

41 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

The 2 & 3-port valve replacements took precedence this week!

 

That’s done now though so what are you waiting for ..??? 

[Nickfromwales]

Half a box of mince pies probably ?

[Barney12]

6 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

OK @Barney12 wins the Top Trump Sunamp tidiest install (I assume pipe insulation omitted for clarity) (sorry @JSHarris, runner up) and not a bulge in sight. Best slam dunk since the cat flap.

 

 

I can’t claim credit for the tidy pipework. That’s all down to @Nickfromwales who is trying hard to acheive my levels of OCD.  

 

I've spent the entire afternoon lagging the pipework, crikey what a thankless task. Not quite finished but will be sure to post a photo when I do. It did seem a bit of a shame to cover up all that lovely copper and brass  

[vivienz]

Oh bugger, I'm far past sober and not looking forward to that on Monday!

[readiescards]

From Sunamp:

"We have just received your question regarding the ErP rating of our products. Our UniQ range of thermal stores in all sizes (3, 6, 9 and 12kWh) are A+ rated in terms of heat storage thermal efficiency. This is valid for all units designed to be primarily charged from an external thermal source, whether they have an inbuilt back-up electrical element or not.

 

The “e” range of UniQ products are physically identical to those with a back-up electric element inside, however as they are designed to be primarily charged from an electrical input the ErP rating is automatically downgraded by a couple of classes as the certification system does not distinguish where the electrical power is coming from (excess solar PV for instance). This is a nuance of the current ErP rating system, but please rest assured that your system is still performing from an efficiency and thermal loss point of view in exactly the same manner as the rest of the UniQ range."

 

So A+ if you don't use the inbuilt heater it seems

 

 

[readiescards]

 

[newhome]

At least they have finally said something publicly. I can’t help thinking that it would have been better to have sent this explanation out with every unit categoried as a C, and their website needs to be updated accordingly. 

[Triassic]

This statement was posted on the Sunamp FB page yesterday...

 

Sometimes we are asked why our super-efficient Heat Batteries only get a C-rating. We are working to make them even more efficient and to get a B (would be unique for an electric water heater). This was our answer to a direct question on twitter, we think it is worth spreading it here as well.

 

EPC (Energy Performance Certificate) is A+ if just a thermal store. Heat loss just 0.744 kWh/24h. Lowest in the market. Add an element. Heat loss stays the same. But grid electricity gets penalised (EU average emissions factor: 2.5x worse compared with gas). Result: C rated. Is that fair?

 

If you use PV solar to charge it, then the emissions factor should be ... zero? Or close to zero. So in the solar PV charged case maybe it should have a solar thermal type rating (A++ ?). It might be possible to lobby to get this reconfigured but what about UK grid electricity? It’s well known (and @myGridGB is the most accessible and wonderful source for tracking this) that the grid has decarbonised massively over the last 5 years or so. 600 g CO2/kWh down to 250 g CO2/kWh in round number terms. So the 2.5 emissions factor isn’t super-applicable in the UK. If you assume gas (via an efficient gas boiler) charging your UniQ thermal store or you assume electricity via the built-in elements of a UniQ electric, the UK carbon emissions are about equal. An emissions factor of 1 (rather than 2.5) would make sense in UK. This is actually reflected in SAP10 emissions factors that @MayorofLondon has announced GLA will apply from 1 January 2019. (Projects in London from now on will probably disavow gas and use electric heat). 

 

To sum up: 
• Sunamp UniQ Thermal Stores A+ Sunamp UniQ Electric Heated C Actual heat losses EQUAL Penalty for electric energy input applied in the move from A+ to C;
• That penalty excessive on either PV charging or UK grid mix; 
• London leading on recognising this in planning. 

 

We see the trend of more renewables making making electricity the heating fuel of choice (dropping below gas emissions soon). So Today we and @OVOEnergy (inc @VCharge) announced our plan to develop mass market electric heating https://www.pbctoday.co.uk/news/energy-news/zero-carbon-home/50394/ . Our joint challenge (supported by @beisgovuk grant) is to develop the heat batteries, system, controls, grid interaction (inc. demand side management) and tariffs to make super-low-carbon electric heating the optimum proposition. Give us a little time. We will succeed! Meanwhile Sunamp UniQ Heat Batteries are available today at prices that are equal or better than hot water tanks.    You can run them from solar PV, heat pumps, gas or grid electricity. UniQ Heat Batteries save energy compared with any water tanks so you can save fuel. Choose the type (eg solar) or time (eg economy 7) of charging and even today electric heat and hot water look pretty compelling. They cost less to install than unvented cylinders (no P&T discharge pipework, no G3 ticket). They have no annual maintenance. That alone can save their purchase cost over 10 years (even before thinking of fuel savings). And they are fantastic tech!

 

Interestingly there was a question in the comments about the 50% depletion requirement before the unit starts to recharge.

[ProDave]

34 minutes ago, Triassic said:

 

Interestingly there was a question in the comments about the 50% depletion requirement before the unit starts to recharge.

Can you post what they said about that?

[Triassic]

21 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Can you post what they said about that?

There was no response from Sunamp. Maybe if we all went onto the Sunamp Facebook page and asked similar questions or added comments we might get a response.

[Declan52]

49 minutes ago, Triassic said:

There was no response from Sunamp. Maybe if we all went onto the Sunamp Facebook page and asked similar questions or added comments we might get a response.

They are  pretty responsive on Twitter and have posted lots about various things recently. 

[newhome]

Anyone with a social media phobia should get over it as far as Twitter is concerned. You can just follow specific companies and / or organisations you have an interest in. No ‘friends’ to interact with, and no interaction needed on your part. Companies like Sunamp are quite active on Twitter and often you’ll read something there way before the webmaster gets round to putting it on the website. You don’t even have to register in your own name, you can just be anonymous if you want to be. They are far more likely to answer a question on Twitter given the public nature of it than via a private email or whatever. 

 

 

[newhome]

No one Tweeted them so I've done it . Restricted on characters so had to be content with the below. 

 

Any plans to remove the restriction whereby UniQs do not accept charge until they are more than 50% depleted? Those with a UniQ are seeing excess PV lost to the grid that they were expecting to top up their UniQ, resulting in hot water unexpectedly running out on occasion.

 

Wait and see if they reply I guess.  

[vfrdave]

On 22/12/2018 at 11:34, Triassic said:

There was no response from Sunamp. Maybe if we all went onto the Sunamp Facebook page and asked similar questions or added comments we might get a response.

This is the response to the post on Facebook which was mine, my bad lol:-

"There are multiple settings. Not able to go into the details just now (Technical team are on holiday) but there are settings designed to work best with solar PV self-consumption controllers."

Edited December 24, 2018 by vfrdave
More text

[Jeremy Harris]

10 minutes ago, vfrdave said:

This is the response to the post on Facebook which was mine, my bad lol:-

"There are multiple settings. Not able to go into the details just now (Technical team are on holiday) but there are settings designed to work best with solar PV self-consumption controllers."

 

 

Depends on your definition of "multiple". 

 

From the manual I have there are two settings. either Option 1 is set to ON, which means that the Sunamp won't accept a charge until it's 90% discharged, or Option 1 is set to OFF, which means the Sunamp won't accept a charge until it's 50% discharged.  Neither setting is any damned use at all if you wish to utilise all your excess PV generation (unless you frig around resetting the controller every day by turning it off and then back on again to force it to accept a charge).  If you use around 4 kWh worth of hot water a day, from a 9 kWh nominal capacity unit,  then there's a fair chance that you will end up with no hot water part way through the second day, even with an early morning boost from a time switch (which wouldn't be accepted if the unit was just over 50% charged at that time), as we found out when the shower ran cold.

 

[newhome]

I got the same 

 

 

[vfrdave]

I have asked for more detail if there are more settings available than those that we know 50% or 90%. I was almost convinced on a sunamp until this was discovered. I have no pv currently but was considering using economy 7.

[newhome]

Here’s my reply (adapted from @JSHarris‘ post above) 

 

 

[Ed Davies]

Beginning to wonder if that 90% setting was originally intended to  be when it's discharged to 90% state of charge (i.e., 10% discharged) but it got misinterpreted by the programmer/technical writer and the management at Sunamp haven't yet realised what's happened.