Offgrid Renovation

[Rendall]

I thought I'd say hello having stalked this site for a few months. 

 

We're looking at taking on the type of project most sane people would walk away from, but happily the wife and I have a healthy dose of insanity which keeps us ticking along. It's a detached mid-Victorian house, but perhaps more Georgian in its appearance and style, which is tucked away down a valley and accessed along a mile and a half track. It's been unoccupied for the last ten years, and pretty much untouched since the 1920s/1930s. Much of the furniture in the house is from that date, having been left from owner to owner. It's never had an electrical supply (or even internal wiring), and apart from design and installation of a complete offgrid energy supply, it needs a full reroof with new guttering and drains, repairs to the chimneys, re-plastering in many internal spaces, renovation/replacement of the staircase, new DHW and CH system, full plumbing, two new bathrooms, new sewage system, upgrading of the private water supply and treatment, new sash windows, new external woodwork. It's also grade II listed and has a resident roost of lesser horseshoe bats.

 

Despite the list of issues, it is though fundamentally a well built house, with slate walls and sound internal timbers (although I fully expect to uncover gremlins in due course). It's also perhaps one of the most beautiful houses I have seen, and set in a stunning location.

 

It's a private sale scenario, and ultimately the final sale price will be dependent on the equation between the tenders and the forecast completed valuation as we'd be looking at a renovation mortgage. We have an offer agreed with the vendor based on our current projection of costs, but we've essentially got to develop and move forward the first stages of our plans 'at risk' as it could either all fall through in terms of the financing, or we may even choose to walk away if any real deal breakers are uncovered. As it stands, over the next few months we will be drawing up the LBC, and draft and issue specifications for the tenders based on a few distinct packages of works. Hopefully we will be in a position to complete in the spring. As its a private sale, and the current owner probably suspects that he's unlikely to easily find another mad couple quite as keen on this as us, he's given us the space to do both the heart as well as the head phase without worrying about other potential buyers. We've been spending the last six months digging into the feasibility, getting surveys and opinions of some of the critical elements, and each time the answers are there and we've been able to move onto addressing and working through the next issues or questions and so far no deal breakers have turned up. Everything we'd want to do is technically feasible but getting tendered costs against these though is a very different question!

 

The irony is that we were not looking for a project at all, but this one has sort of found us. Previously we've only ever needed to do very limited works on previous houses - bathrooms and kitchen refurbs, bits of repointing, roof tile replacement, external decs, chimney lining and so forth - so a major renovation is new for us as a couple. I am fortunate in that my job has meant that I've been around a number of projects involving historic buildings over the last ten years, but it's very different when you can rely on the collective expertise and decision making of a project manager and a professional inhouse team full of technical experts to when its just up to you and the dog. Although, reassuringly it seems the dog does sometimes know more than me too.

[newhome]

Welcome! Sounds like quite a project. This is a great forum to mull over or bounce ideas around, even if you end up where you thought you were heading it’s reassuring to have discussed it with others. We don’t appear to have many off grid folk here but there are some really experienced guys who can help with the technical considerations in all areas. Not me sadly, I probably know about as much as the dog ? ?. Looking forward to seeing how things develop, and seeing some plans or photos. Sounds wonderful. 

 

 

[Square Feet]

I found the Ecology Building Society were the only ones who would consider a mortgage on a property of that sort.  This was 15 years ago mind, so it might be different now.  Sounds like a very big project. Best of luck with it.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Square Feet

[lizzie]

Interesting project......any photos 

[Rendall]

24 minutes ago, Square Feet said:

I found the Ecology Building Society were the only ones who would consider a mortgage on a property of that sort.  This was 15 years ago mind, so it might be different now.  Sounds like a very big project. Best of luck with it.

 

Yes, I've spoken with Ecology and they'd be one of the options for us.

[ToughButterCup]

Welcome.

If ever there was a project that demanded thorough research, this is one. And you'll be doing it on top of a full time job.  The list of challenges faced is longer than average, but all of them have already been covered here in some detail. I mean - It's just a house. And you'll have lots of local advice on tap I'm sure.

 

You now have a few hundred BH addicts hooked. We all want piccies so we can wince over our cornflakes, and splutter into our cup of tea.

' Eeeer, sweetheart! Seen this?.... Proper job that. Wonder how long it'll take @Onoff  to find an excuse to visit?'

[Gone West]

Welcome to the forum. Sounds like a very interesting project in a stunning part of the country, so lots of pictures please.

[Onoff]

3 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

Welcome.

If ever there was a project that demanded thorough research, this is one. And you'll be doing it on top of a full time job.  The list of challenges faced is longer than average, but all of them have already been covered here in some detail. I mean - It's just a house. And you'll have lots of local advice on tap I'm sure.

 

You now have a few hundred BH addicts hooked. We all want piccies so we can wince over our cornflakes, and splutter into our cup of tea.

' Eeeer, sweetheart! Seen this?.... Proper job that. Wonder how long it'll take @Onoff  to find an excuse to visit?'

 

No can do, my Passport's expired!

Oh, and welcome aboard @Rendall. 

[Cpd]

Sounds great.... I did / am doing something similar but with electric already in place. Beautiful location / long abandoned homes.... six years into the project.... still love it but would have made some different choices had I know at the beginning what I know now thanks to this forum and follow on reading. Pictures please ! 

[newhome]

As it’s been unoccupied for more than 10 years I imagine you are eligible for the VAT reclaim? Hopefully you’ve looked into that as it will be a big saving. 

[Rendall]

5 minutes ago, newhome said:

As it’s been unoccupied for more than 10 years I imagine you are eligible for the VAT reclaim? Hopefully you’ve looked into that as it will be a big saving. 

 

Yes, but from what I gather from the council, there's a now only 5% rate for buildings which have been unoccupied for two years, and no longer a 0% rate. Is that national or just a local variation (Gwynedd). Annoying as the council tax was stopped back in 2008 so we'd be able to evidence the ten years!

[newhome]

2 minutes ago, Rendall said:

 

Yes, but from what I gather from the council, there's a now only 5% rate for buildings which have been unoccupied for two years, and no longer a 0% rate. Is that national or just a local variation (Gwynedd). Annoying as the council tax was stopped back in 2008 so we'd be able to evidence the ten years!

 

They are talking crap ?. There is still a 10 year rate and it’s governed by HMRC so there shouldn’t be local variations. 

 

See here:

 

https://www.gov.uk/vat-building-new-home/eligibility

 

The 5% rate still exists but the 0% rate is much better as it means you can buy materials yourself and fit them yourself and claim the vat back. You can’t do that with the 5% rate as you can only get that if you employ a VAT registered builder (there is no reclaim process). I would give HMRC a ring if you are not 100% sure if you are eligible as there is a lot of money at stake and being eligible (or not) may determine how you go about the project. 

 

Also have a read here:

 

 

 

[Rendall]

Some pics and a vid clip.....

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Rendall

[Rendall]

7 minutes ago, newhome said:

 

They are talking crap ?. There is still a 10 year rate and it’s governed by HMRC so there shouldn’t be local variations. 

 

See here:

 

https://www.gov.uk/vat-building-new-home/eligibility

 

The 5% rate still exists but the 0% rate is much better as it means you can buy materials yourself and fit them yourself and claim the vat back. You can’t do that with the 5% rate as you can only get that if you employ a VAT registered builder (there is no reclaim process). I would give HMRC a ring if you are not 100% sure if you are eligible as there is a lot of money at stake and being eligible (or not) may determine how you go about the project. 

 

Also have a read here:

 

 

 

 

That makes sense - I was confused by the contrasting information from the council in relation to what I'd gleaned from elsewhere, and this was going to be one of my questions for the collective minds on here so thank you for this.

[jack]

Wow, what a fantastic sounding (and looking!) project! That view is gobsmacking.

 

I love the fact that you have evidence of some of the people who've lived there before. I had the same with the little garage workshop at the place we bought.

 

I assume you'll hang onto the odd salvageable piece to keep a link to the history of the place?

[newhome]

1 minute ago, Rendall said:

 

That makes sense - I was confused by the contrasting information from the council in relation to what I'd gleaned from elsewhere, and this was going to be one of my questions for the collective minds on here so thank you for this.

 

Have a good read through the claim form. The notes will go through how to assess eligibility. 

 

The council are possibly thinking of the listed buildings scheme that did withdraw the 0% provision. 

 

Looks like a wonderful setting. I can see why you’ve fallen in love with it but wow that’s so much work! 

 

 

[ProDave]

Hi and welcome to the form.

 

That looks stunning. What is the access track like?  In my rambles I have passed by several derelict houses like that, but mostly inaccessible by vehicle. Some used as holiday homes.  If you have a decent track so you can drive to it you are in with a fighting chance.

[PeterW]

Stunning project ..!

 

and welcome ..! 

[Rendall]

16 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Hi and welcome to the form.

 

That looks stunning. What is the access track like?  In my rambles I have passed by several derelict houses like that, but mostly inaccessible by vehicle. Some used as holiday homes.  If you have a decent track so you can drive to it you are in with a fighting chance.

Track is Ok (by my standards). We've go up and down in a skoda octavia and Peugeot, and it's also used by the local farmer. The bottom end is also used by Natural Resources Wales and so they have a repairing obligation when they use it for any works. It's mainly been surfaced with slate waste and the valley has a couple of convenient former waste heaps which are what the previous owner and farmer have used to surface as and when needed. Snowy winters will be a different matter!

[Onoff]

I have plans for a snowmobile if you're interested...

[Rendall]

25 minutes ago, jack said:

Wow, what a fantastic sounding (and looking!) project! That view is gobsmacking.

 

I love the fact that you have evidence of some of the people who've lived there before. I had the same with the little garage workshop at the place we bought.

 

I assume you'll hang onto the odd salvageable piece to keep a link to the history of the place?

 

Yes I'm sure we'll keep/restore some of the furniture. Earlier in the year I opened a drawer and found a George V penny which gives a sense of the timelessness there. Elsewhere there's a photo album and letters from a soldier in the first world war (I'll track down a museum for this one once/if we complete on the purchase). The area is well documented from a historical source perspective, and the accounts from when the house was built in 1868/1869 even survive.

[Pete]

Reminds me of two houses I have completely renovated, not as remote as your's but in the same condition. Just thinking about those ceilings makes me remember the amount of work and dirt involved in taking them down as they where not repairable. Will look absolutely fabulous when completed. Welcome.

[newhome]

One of our members @Yzzy has been pulling down ceilings. The house hasn’t been unoccupied for quite as long as yours but still a significant task. 

 

https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/4735-hey-from-essex-xx/?do=findComment&comment=92526

 

 

[Ferdinand]

My parents took one of these on when me & sis were just under 10.  That was 5000 sqft+, Grade II Listed and they were still doing bits of fabric 25 years later. The roof was done in sections over 2 decades. At the end our all-electric energy bills could run at £5k a year easily was the whole house in use.

 

Looks like a great project, and I hope you have a decent amount of land too. My immediate comments to try and add to your thinking.

 

Is this a blitz project of less than 2-3 years, or a long-term one of more like 8 or 10 years? ? 

 

1 - There may be something to be said for doing one area first and moving in to that (like a small apartment). If you are doing serious work, you perhaps want to be onsite since it is in the middle of nowhere.

 

2 - Pay very careful attention to the stuff you will only do once, as you will be living with any cockups or underinvestments for a loooooooong time. Particularly applies to restoration of fabric. eg insulate and ventilate properly - what will the lifecycle costs of poorer insulation look like after 15 years? If you are off grid or electric only, then energy use is important. Do you have a planned strategy for energy yet?

 

I might argue that putting in skirt insulation should be one of your first things to do, if you do not plan to dig out the internal floors.

 

3 - Is it worth you seeking to become competent in some sort of trade area - one that you will need always whilst you are there? That can be fun and save significant cash. Looking at the pics, tree maintenance, woodwork (sash windows / furniture) or stone walling might be interesting and useful.

 

4 - Perhaps find yourself a multi-skilled handyman type locally, who is good at lots of different things - and plan to use him for the next decade if it works out. You will get good advice as to other trades man, and hopefully somebody less expensive that Competent Persons who you can use without the same worry. Also, that type may be more available for short term and minor jobs whilst Tradesmen have to do a lot of their main thing to stay certified and have a less chopped up schedule.

 

I'm currently trying to draft a piece arguing that having a good generalist around is beneficial for self-builders - currently mine has been helping a forum member from 2nd-Fit on, and has done dozens of very different things that would potentially require several different recruits if no generalist was around.

 

5 - Pay attention to your tax strategy as well as legal and construction strategies, eg (and speculating) I think a lot of the structural stuff can be offset against CGT when you sell it, so is there a chance for one of you to buy it now, then sell it to the other when you roll over the renovation mortgage. I think that some things eg windows can be treated as capital or maintenance depending on how you play it (and the words you use). No idea whether any of this would be worthwhile - but have a look.

 

6 - It may be an idea to build a good double garage quickly, for secure storage, or two for a roofed central section to be added later. Requires no PP.

 

7  - If it as isolated as stated and a Private Sale, then consider whether there are any 'facts on the ground' that you need to create before any authorities come to visit eg a lake. They always get far more enervated about stuff that isn't there yet, so if you need it or it is something that they will flap about, perhaps put it there first (judiciously).

 

Our listed building was not visited for more than 30 years, and was in the middle of a large clump of trees. "Repairs" can cover a multitude of sins, and if eg you "repair" your whole roof you maybe able to puts loads of inroof solar on it without anyone noticing. My parents repaired entire outside walls without telling anyone as dad was an architect - by traditional stonemasons and with all blocks numbered and restored exactly, but to an extent that the top floor and roof were structurally stood on acros for months. Regulations are tighter now, I think.

 

8. Consider carefully what to buy and what to hire. I would eg buy scaffolding.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Onoff]

How far are you going with the off grid thing?

 

Any livestock planned? I've some good links to home built biogas plants. One from Mother Earth News and a Nepalese design my Gurkha friends confirm is widely used and provided the (gas) light they did their homework by as kids whilst Mum cooked dinner on the gas stove. 

 

Also a US solar energy forum if you're interested.