jack Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 1 hour ago, JSHarris said: When I was working I had a golden rule with regards to contracting. It was get the contract right at the start, then you will never need to look at it ever again. Once a relationship has broken down to the point where one or other side keeps referring to the terms of the contract, then things are usually doomed and both sides will end up losing. The concept is colloquially known as putting the contract in the drawer. Even so, for complex and/or long term commercial relationships, periodic contract review is often healthy. 40 minutes ago, Declan52 said: Think you need to take a breath and ditch the name calling statements. Agreed. We've all met poor tradespeople, and there are doubtless some gormless self-builders, but I can't see any point in unpleasant generalisations. 1 hour ago, daiking said: what does @laurenco need to do now? Re-engage the same company to bring their machines back to load up the waste for disposal? Extra unnecessary cost on top of the disposal or pay someone else to do the some wasteful operation when it should have been done all together with some sort of economy of scale or without duplicating effort? Yes, with hindsight, a clearer agreed scope of works would have helped, and yes, possibly the demo guy is an arsehole who's preyed on someone who wasn't up on the finer nuances of demolition and waste removal. But we are where we are, and it's a FACT that without any written contract, the OP is put in a much more difficult position. The discussion is for his benefit (what does he do given he's here?) as well as for others who are reading this in the future before they engage a demolition contractor ("oh, I need a demolition contract that specifies who's taking the waste from the site"). Shall we just, as Declan says, take a breath and try to stay constructive? 1 minute ago, laurenco said: Okay, I agreed to split the weigh-in of the copper roof, so got £1,900 back for that. The rest—wood and whatnot—he could have. Re: the broken up slab mountain, I've done a deal with him to remove the excess debris for £85 a load. It's cheap I know, but it's also open to exploitation; is the truck the size of a small wheelbarrow? will they fill each truck completely? and will they be entirely honest about how many trips they take to dispose of it. The only way to find out is to put on my wellies, set up camp, and watch ? So that is what I'm going to do... Sounds like a decent outcome, well done for dealing with it head on. And wow, £1900 quid back for the copper roof - sounds like he was getting an amazing deal before you pushed back! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, laurenco said: Okay, I agreed to split the weigh-in of the copper roof, so got £1,900 back for that. The rest—wood and whatnot—he could have. Re: the broken up slab mountain, I've done a deal with him to remove the excess debris for £85 a load. It's cheap I know, but it's also open to exploitation; is the truck the size of a small wheelbarrow? will they fill each truck completely? and will they be entirely honest about how many trips they take to dispose of it. The only way to find out is to put on my wellies, set up camp, and watch ? So that is what I'm going to do... How are they disposing of it. If they are going over a weighbridge then ask to see the dockets to prove that all the loads are near enough the same weight. If they aren't then it's a seat,a flask and a newspaper and keep a beady eye on them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 @laurenco that sounds like a decent way forward and I would be camping out too. You may want to invest in a CCTV camera too to cover all bases. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, Declan52 said: How are they disposing of it. If they are going over a weighbridge then ask to see the dockets to prove that all the loads are near enough the same weight. If they aren't then it's a seat,a flask and a newspaper and keep a beady eye on them. You also need a paper trail for each load, the last thing you need is for the Local Aurhority or the Environment Agency come knocking at your door because the waste was not disposed of in accordance with the regulations.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, jack said: The concept is colloquially known as putting the contract in the drawer. Even so, for complex and/or long term commercial relationships, periodic contract review is often healthy. Yep, and this is done all the time where I work typically where the contracts are for 7 or 8 figure sums and run for up to 5 years. This is scheduled as a regular activity that benefits both sides. The time to do that however is not when issues emerge although sometimes that has to be the way forward if more informal talks aren’t productive. Far better to deal with issues without having to call in Group legal or sourcing as that’s then a tough gig for everyone! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, Triassic said: You also need a paper trail for each load, the last thing you need is for the Local Aurhority or the Environment Agency come knocking at your door because the waste was not disposed of in accordance with the regulations.. Surely if you are paying someone to dispose of waste that’s then their responsibility. Or is that another minefield? I only had trades dispose of waste a couple of times but have to admit I never asked where it was going. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Household Duty of Care If you are a householder, you are required to take reasonable steps to check that people removing waste from your premises are authorised to do so. Reasonable steps to take: Ask the waste carrier to provide you with their full address and telephone number. Ask to see their waste carrier licence issued by the Environment Agency or Natural Resources Wales. Contact the Environment Agency directly on 08708 506 506 and ask for a free instant Waste Carrier Validation Check, alternatively you can check online on the Environment Agency website. 1 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stones Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 I know crushers have been mentioned, but chatting to my builder recently, he was telling me how he used his groundworks contractor, who happened to have a concrete crusher for his excavator, to deal with all of the demolished material (concrete and rotten rock) on a site he was developing. He was initially sceptical on cost as there wasn't much activity for his circa £45 per hour. However, having processed all of the material, he was able to use it all on site as crushed aggregate for road and path sub bases at a total cost of £3 / tonne. May still be worth considering if you can use crushed / processed material on site? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, Stones said: concrete crusher for his excavator Search for Bav bucket crushers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurenco Posted August 23, 2018 Author Share Posted August 23, 2018 37 minutes ago, Stones said: I know crushers have been mentioned, but chatting to my builder recently, he was telling me how he used his groundworks contractor, who happened to have a concrete crusher for his excavator, to deal with all of the demolished material (concrete and rotten rock) on a site he was developing. He was initially sceptical on cost as there wasn't much activity for his circa £45 per hour. However, having processed all of the material, he was able to use it all on site as crushed aggregate for road and path sub bases at a total cost of £3 / tonne. May still be worth considering if you can use crushed / processed material on site? I love this idea. We have discussed it, and it would be worth keeping and crushing some of the debris - it's hard to know how much to keep at this stage. Would the mountain of crushed aggregate be smaller than non-crushed ie. what we have now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Just now, laurenco said: I love this idea. We have discussed it, and it would be worth keeping and crushing some of the debris - it's hard to know how much to keep at this stage. Would the mountain of crushed aggregate be smaller than non-crushed ie. what we have now? The mountain would be smaller once crushed. If you did have too much at the end you'd get plenty of takers for it I'm sure. Factor in some bottles to placate the neighbours if it's that noisy! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stones Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, Onoff said: The mountain would be smaller once crushed. If you did have too much at the end you'd get plenty of takers for it I'm sure. Factor in some bottles to placate the neighbours if it's that noisy! +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsilonGreedy Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, laurenco said: sounds like you dealt with a logical guy, which is a rarity in the building trade Go low-tech, go local and keep traditional is working for me so far. No one who has worked on my site traveled more than 10 miles. Edited August 23, 2018 by epsilonGreedy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsilonGreedy Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Declan52 said: Think you need to take a breath and ditch the name calling statements. But he does highlight a reasonable point and problem with the forum. Kneejerk empathy with the plight of self builders in these situations may not help in the long term. I recall helping someone through a divorce 10 years ago, her gaggle of female friends simply reinforced her delusional view of the world and how dreadful her ex was, whereas I told her the truth. The ladies who lunched won the argument and today the divorcee is even more unhappy clutching to her disillusion views. The common thread to these problems occurs when self builders want to feel in control but lack the time, experience or intuition for the self assigned project manager role. My advice is either spend time comprehending every detail of the job and accept responsibility or hand over responsibility for a complete building stage and pay for a high caliber crew. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said: But he does highlight a reasonable point and problem with the forum. Kneejerk empathy with the plight of self builders in these situations may not help in the long term. I recall helping someone through a divorce 10 years ago, her gaggle of female friends simply reinforced her delusional view of the world and how dreadful her ex was, whereas I told her the truth. The ladies who lunched won the argument and today the divorcee is even more unhappy clutching to her disillusion views. The common thread to these problems occurs when self builders want to feel in control but lack the time, experience or intuition for the self assigned project manager role. My advice is either spend time comprehending every detail of the job and accept responsibility or hand over responsibility for a complete building stage and pay for a high caliber crew. What are we meant to do then just post funny remarks mocking someones plight. I think you will find most of the posts start with empathy and then move on towards how a solution can be found. Just because you don't have time doesn't mean you shouldn't be going over every detail. Also just because you hand the reins over to a higher calibre crew won't mean it's done right either. Plenty of examples on here to illustrate both. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsilonGreedy Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, Declan52 said: Just because you don't have time doesn't mean you shouldn't be going over every detail. Also just because you hand the reins over to a higher calibre crew won't mean it's done right either. Plenty of examples on here to illustrate both. Possibly but if true many self builders should buy a ready made Wimpy new build instead. There are patterns to success that can be identified by following this forum. There is the @JSHarris formula which is to understand everything in forensic detail and then contract out complete building stages to good people after extensive discussions. You and @ProDave show what is possible through doing as much as possible hands-on when time and funds allow. Others sign a big cheque and wait for Potton Homes to send them the front door key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 1 minute ago, epsilonGreedy said: Possibly but if true many self builders should buy a ready made Wimpy new build instead. There are patterns to success that can be identified by following this forum. There is the @JSHarris formula which is to understand everything in forensic detail and then contract out complete building stages to good people after extensive discussions. You and @ProDave show what is possible through doing as much as possible hands-on when time and funds allow. Others sign a big cheque and wait for Potton Homes to send them the front door key. The main reason people don't buy a wimpy home is they want it done right and not just to the bare minimum of standards. No point in buying one and then hopefully by the time your mortgage is paid off you will have the house where it would have been if you had of done it yourself. Why did you not just hand the cheque over to potton homes and then you wouldn't have to ask all the questions on here?? Maybe it's because you wanted to oversee the build and make sure it was done right or maybe your some kind of masochistic who enjoys sleeps nights, stress, sore muscles, hacked fingers etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsilonGreedy Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Declan52 said: The main reason people don't buy a wimpy home is they want it done right and not just to the bare minimum of standards. My point is many self builders do not have time to fully comprehend how to build a house, which raises a question as to what such self builders should do. 6 minutes ago, Declan52 said: Why did you not just hand the cheque over to potton homes and then you wouldn't have to ask all the questions on here?? Maybe it's because you wanted to oversee the build and make sure it was done right or maybe your some kind of masochistic who enjoys sleeps nights, stress, sore muscles, hacked fingers etc. Money. I could not afford the whole scale kit contract out route so I decided to dive fully into the hands on process. So far I have done my own setting out and levels. Tweaked the foundation design to my own requirements. Done my own foul drainage fall calculations. Ordered my own concrete. Formed 30% of the concrete pour team. Helped lay my footing blocks for a total labour cost of £500. I am laying my own garage footing blocks. And most important of all I am thinking all aspects of the build n steps ahead. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 56 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said: Kneejerk empathy with the plight of self builders in these situations may not help in the long term. "Kneejerk empathy"? Good lord, what a hideous phrase! What's wrong with starting with empathy, then moving on to the best practical advice we can come up with collectively for the current situation, tempered with advice for those who follow so they don't make the same mistake? I'm sure you've learned plenty from the site - it isn't all just hugs and drum circles. 19 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said: There is the @JSHarris formula which is to understand everything in forensic detail and then contract out complete building stages to good people after extensive discussions. And yet Jeremy candidly admits that several things went wrong, despite the fact he's clearly a highly capable human and spent a lot of time researching and planning. 1 minute ago, epsilonGreedy said: So far I have done my own setting out and levels. Tweaked the foundation design to my own requirements. Done my own foul drainage fall calculations. Ordered my own concrete. Formed 30% of the concrete pour team. Helped lay my footing blocks for a total labour cost of £500. I am laying my own garage footing blocks. And most important of all I am thinking all aspects of the build n steps ahead. Bully for you. Sounds like you have it all worked out and everything will be perfect until the day you move in. Nevertheless, in the unlikely event you do hit an unforeseen roadbump, you can be sure there'll be kneejerk empathy and practical advice here if you want it. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 There are a multitude of reasons why people self build and a multitude of ways of managing it. The only certainty is that you need to be on the ball and aware whatever route you take. For many it’s the satisfaction of saying I built that and having created a unique house that they wanted rather than having a house designed for the mass market. Plus many will want to oversee the operation and do as much as they can themselves. Just like self build houses we are all unique individuals bonded by a common goal and formed into a community via this forum. Self building can be a lonely place but it’s forums like this that help overcome the feeling of isolation. Whether it’s empathy, advice, hard messages or however you want to badge it, it’s the sense of community that makes this a great place to be. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 14 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said: Money. I could not afford the whole scale kit contract out route so I decided to dive fully into the hands on process. It’s not just down to money. There is the satisfaction of having personally done some parts of the build such as the ones you list whether you could afford to have someone else do them or not. You cannot measure satisfaction purely in a monetary sense, it’s far more important than that. Pride, fulfilment, self-esteem et al. It’s all relevant. And in the event you have a wobble or an issue people are here to help, in the same way that we are here to celebrate success too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsilonGreedy Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, jack said: What's wrong with starting with empathy, then moving on to the best practical advice we can come up with collectively for the current situation, tempered with advice for those who follow so they don't make the same mistake? What is wrong is when empathy halts and just reinforces an OP's sense of victim status. Edited August 23, 2018 by epsilonGreedy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 1 hour ago, epsilonGreedy said: My advice is either spend time comprehending every detail of the job and accept responsibility or hand over responsibility for a complete building stage and pay for a high caliber crew. Perfect ..! It’s where you draw the line that is important and it’s threads like this that reinforce your point about research - it’s why forums like this exist ! 17 minutes ago, newhome said: Self building can be a lonely place but it’s forums like this that help overcome the feeling of isolation. Whether it’s empathy, advice, hard messages or however you want to badge it, it’s the sense of community that makes this a great place to be. There is every type of self builder on here from the newbies fitting a radiator to the serial self builders on their 6th build, yet at some point each will feel like the world is on their shoulders and a partner who’s in it with them - usually up to the knees in mud - is sometimes not the best places to help through either involvement or just lack of knowledge. And it’s lonely ..!! I doubt there is a question on self building that can’t be answered by one of the 1600 or so members who have decades of experience - neither is there anyone on here who wants to see a single person fail in their self build dream. It’s about providing a network for members to call on when they need it, but also giving back where you can, even if it’s to say “don’t do it like I did....” 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said: What is wrong is when empathy halts and just reinforces an OP's sense of victim status. To be clear, is that what you're saying happened in this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsilonGreedy Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, newhome said: It’s not just down to money. Indeed, I was responding to a specific challenge as to why I had not signed a big cheque and let a kit home contractor deliver a complete house. 6 minutes ago, newhome said: You cannot measure satisfaction purely in a monetary sense, it’s far more important than that. Pride, fulfilment, self-esteem et al. You missed the biggest source of self build satisfaction, it is the people one meets on the journey. 8 minutes ago, newhome said: in the same way that we are here to celebrate success too. You sure about that? Having described how hands on my self build has been I get... 26 minutes ago, jack said: Bully for you. Sounds like you have it all worked out and everything will be perfect until the day you move in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now