Help with kitchen renovation/ 1st house.

[newhome]

34 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Anyway look here.. closing in on codeine+beer o'clock for the week me.. one more to go!

 

 

And let there be light. Looking good. 

[Onoff]

Simply put that cable is so wrong I'm almost lost for words. That you choose to ignore the problem...

 

 

 

[Tennentslager]

Am I the only suspicious soul who is pondering if Zoot is really an incognito forum regular yanking @Onoff s chain...

[Gone West]

5 minutes ago, Tennentslager said:

Am I the only suspicious soul who is pondering if Zoot is really an incognito forum regular yanking @Onoff s chain...

I had wondered, but Clive's patience is amazing.

[newhome]

@zoothorn is trying to take @Onoff's crown - this thread is over 600 posts already . 

[zoothorn]

Y

9 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

I had wondered, but Clive's patience is amazing.

 

17 minutes ago, Tennentslager said:

Am I the only suspicious soul who is pondering if Zoot is really an incognito forum regular yanking @Onoff s chain...

 

Thanks- look if you can't contribute with anything positive or any help just negative remarks, just don't. please.

[zoothorn]

Thanks onoff (I'm not the slightest bit concerned about the cable as 1) this is only plugged in when outside work needed, 2) this bit will be be tiled anyway 3) if anything IS shorting -totally unlikely anyway-.. it'll trip this spur's fuse) appreciate the help.

 

I'll be back once my surgery few days over & with those extensions to hand- I might well do this pb3 last/ crack on with the other wall.

Edited August 14, 2018 by zoothorn

[Onoff]

You might not be concerned but the person who decides to drill to fit a row of cup hooks or key rack might well be. 

 

Aside from the selfishness of this think about when YOU have to replace that extension lead through the wall. There's a good chance it won't pull through that easy and I'll guarantee you won't be able to get the new one through unless you're lucky with a draw wire. No doubt it simply exits the wall where it's free to chaff against the edges of the drilled hole!

 

It would be far better to have an IP rated socket outside on the wall. Less fugly in the kitchen and more convenient outside. It would free up that extension lead too as and when required. 

 

Of course once you take the power outside you're into the realms of Part P. I know the Welsh regs are different to England but imagine it requires a competent person that's a member of an approved scheme.

 

One way it could be done is to knock out one of the 20mm knockouts in the back of that double socket back box. Drill a hole through at a slight downward angle. Fit a length of 20mm pvc conduit down through the drilled hole protruding 10mm through the back box. Fit an IP6* rated exterior socket outside. Doing this depends on the existing circuit that socket is on being up to the task and suitably protected but that in essence is it. A short length of 2.5mm2 T&E would connect the outside socket to the existing socket inside. You would have 3 Lives in one terminal, 3 Neutrals and 3 Earths in the others.

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, PeterStarck said:

I had wondered, but Clive's patience is amazing.

 

As is Nick's, Peter's etc with me!

[newhome]

1 minute ago, Onoff said:

 

As is Nick's, Peter's etc with me!

 

Paying it forward ?. Getting there though. Wonder if this kitchen will be finished before your bathroom? 

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, newhome said:

@zoothorn is trying to take @Onoff's crown - this thread is over 600 posts already . 

 

The pity is there were only four basic questions in there! 

[Onoff]

13 minutes ago, newhome said:

 

Paying it forward ?. Getting there though. Wonder if this kitchen will be finished before your bathroom? 

 

F**king hope so!

[Jeremy Harris]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

Thanks onoff (I'm not the slightest bit concerned about the cable as 1) this is only plugged in when outside work needed, 2) this bit will be be tiled anyway 3) if anything IS shorting -totally unlikely anyway-.. it'll trip this spur's fuse) appreciate the help.

 

I'll be back once my surgery few days over & with those extensions to hand- I might well do this pb3 last/ crack on with the other wall.

 

 

 

I really hate to be negative, but that cable is seriously dangerous and you have no choice but to remove it and do as @Onoff has suggested.  You may well think you can live with the risk, but there are several scenarios I can think of that are outwith your control.   Apart from the obvious issue of a cable that is not rated to be used when buried in insulation, so will easily overheat in use, and the obvious issue that there is a very high probability that the insulation will react with the plasticisers in the cable insulation and cause it to degrade and slowly develop internal shorts, there is also the matter of compliance with the law - that is now a fixed installation, in a kitchen, that is highly non compliant with the regulations.

 

Please just take it out and fit an outside socket properly.  The cost and time is small, and you will be removing a stack of serious risks at the same time.

[Onoff]

2 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

 

I really hate to be negative, but that cable is seriously dangerous and you have no choice but to remove it and do as @Onoff has suggested.  You may well think you can live with the risk, but there are several scenarios I can think of that are outwith your control.   Apart from the obvious issue of a cable that is not rated to be used when buried in insulation, so will easily overheat in use, and the obvious issue that there is a very high probability that the insulation will react with the plasticisers in the cable insulation and cause it to degrade and slowly develop internal shorts, there is also the matter of compliance with the law - that is now a fixed installation, in a kitchen, that is highly non compliant with the regulations.

 

Please just take it out and fit an outside socket properly.  The cost and time is small, and you will be removing a stack of serious risks at the same time.

 

+1. I couldn't be ar $ed going into that detail tbh. You can lead a horse to water etc...

[newhome]

If the guys on here think it should be changed then it should TBH. Shouldn’t take too long to do a proper job on that and you’re doing a proper job everywhere else so don’t cut unnecessary corners. 

 

 

[Tennentslager]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Thanks- look if you can't contribute with anything positive or any help just negative remarks, just don't. please.

The forum is, as you know a helpful place...the odd bit of mirth keeps things rolling along...no negatively intended.

Your doing a great job, keep the faith?

If you were nearby I'd come and hold your PB for you...but alas can only view and offer the odd comment. No point though as private first class is doing such a wonderful job?

[Ferdinand]

Just checking back in with the kitchen. have been too much of a fustilarian this last couple of weeks.

 

Kitchen looking good ... apart from that cable. When you cut the hedge cable before your experience could be dependent on many things, including the weather and your type of shoes, or where the current happened to flow; might be different next time.

 

Time for some more Zoot Music? This is Rick Springfield and the band Zoot. This is 1970, so I am sure there were some forum members rocking that Star Trek Series 1 - Moonbase Alpha inverted cross “This is strumming my guitar with no other implications” revolutionary look.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Ferdinand

[zoothorn]

On 14/08/2018 at 18:36, newhome said:

 

Paying it forward ?. Getting there though. Wonder if this kitchen will be finished before your bathroom? 

 

Very much doubt it! I'm back from surgery & pondering again. The cable that's so concerning.. is not plugged in remember: it gets plugged in -only- when one thing is used outside, mower, router, or chopsaw. I just don't have skills or tools to fit an outside socket.

 

Still no extension boxes- nowhere to buy so I'll leave this PB for last. Ok onto the 2nd wall..

 

What I have is a bigger window area, so how to do the outline onto the PB (RHS) once the sills done..? I'd need to train a squirrel or small gibbon to use a pencil > get in > then fk off out my kitchen.

 

I need to unhook the sink too/ put 2 isoltating valves on.. which will be a trial to live without, so I need to carefully plan how to PB etc this wall. Its also got H/C water pipes @ LHS near microwave (along with the plumbing pipes to sink).

 

 

 

cheers, zootH

[newhome]

9 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I just don't have skills or tools to fit an outside socket.

 

Nor me. I just shove an extension lead through the window or door. 

 

Do you have a replacement sink yet? I would get all of the materials ready to complete the job so that you don’t have any down time waiting for bits. 

 

You’ll need to order those extension boxes online .... 

[zoothorn]

Hi Newhome- yes new sink + mix tap. Sink needs a flamin hole drilled, 35mm or s'thing, a major pita, so I need to do that ready before I unhook sink.

 

What I'd planned is to turn off mains water/ cut existing 15mm pipes/ take out sink & units/ add 2 isloating valves.. so In can turn water back on for rest of house whilst sink's out of action. Is that the right idea?

 

But then I need all steps ready/ clear re. this wall so I waste as little sink time as poss. I've never done sink waste plumbing stuff, but looks mostly placcy so hopefully easier than compression joints. I'm just thinking about the 2 tops' joining too.. the sink's top needs to slide into the other, I think. So does that mean top 1 needs to be fixed in final place beforehand?

[Jeremy Harris]

4 hours ago, newhome said:

 

Nor me. I just shove an extension lead through the window or door. 

 

 

Definitely a great deal safer than a cable that's buried in insulation and may well be gradually degrading, unseen, even when not being used or plugged in.  Who knows whether any fault would trip whatever safety devices may be protecting that circuit.  The wiring pre-dates the use of RCDs (it's red and black, which gives it's age away) and so that means it's likely that there is no earth fault protection on that cable when plugged in at all. 

 

I'll admit to doing a few dodgy things and taking risks from time to time (like I will often work on live kit, just because I'm used to it) so I'm not averse to living life on the slightly dangerous side, but even I'd not contemplate a PVC insulated flex buried in insulation like that.

 

Just shoving an extension lead out of a window when you need it has to be a great deal safer.  Apart from anything else, you're far more likely to spot any weaknesses or impending faults in the cable if you can see all of it.

[ProDave]

Can I just add my plea, for gawd sake disconnect that cable. How many times do you need to be told that is bloody dangerous.  You might not care about your own safety, so please spare a thought for the next owner.

[zoothorn]

15 hours ago, ProDave said:

Can I just add my plea, for gawd sake disconnect that cable. How many times do you need to be told that is bloody dangerous.  You might not care about your own safety, so please spare a thought for the next owner.

 

It is disconnected. You can see it is (& 99% of the time it will be too). So how, if its not plugged in, is it dangerous?!!!!! do tell me.

 

If you can't help me with the topic of the thread, please don't post. It may not be up to your design or standard, but it is my house- not yours. thx

[zoothorn]

Can anyone please help me out on the 2nd wall. I have a sink to undo 1st, obviously, which I have never done before. My theory is to add isolation valves onto the water pipes @ points I can then add the new 2x flex mixtap connectors from, so extra shut-off points in future as a bonus.

 

So water off to cut the pipes/ add the ISO valves. But is this a sufficient-enough barrier to safely turn on water again? It'll be best part of the week for me to do the 2nd wall batten/ C'tex/ sink & worktop prep/ then PB esp tricky @ plumbing area its seems, & other water pipes to negotiate LHS up the wall.. so I can't have the water off for the whole week.

 

And @ the 15mm pipe cut points, will there be alot of water spill to deal with? any way of stopping/ mitigating against this prior to cutting?

 

thanks zootH

[Jeremy Harris]

41 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

It is disconnected. You can see it is (& 99% of the time it will be too). So how, if its not plugged in, is it dangerous?!!!!! do tell me.

 

If you can't help me with the topic of the thread, please don't post. It may not be up to your design or standard, but it is my house- not yours. thx

 

Even disconnected there may well be (probably will be) chemical reactions between the plasticisers in the flexible cable insulation and the insulation.  It's a well-known problem.  This means that the cable may be sat their degrading internally inside the wall without you being aware, as it's behind the plasterboard.

 

In addition, flexible extension cables are always rated for use fully unreeled in the open air, so any heat from normal I²R losses within the cable can dissipate safely via the outer surface of the cable.  When buried in insulation that normal heat cannot dissipate, so may well build up when the cable is in use, further degrading the insulation of hidden section of cable in the wall and adding to the unseen potential problem.

 

The danger is that you won't be able to see any of this; it will be going on inside the wall, and may take months for the insulation to gradually degrade.  It will tend to degrade from over-heating in use internally first, and from plasticiser degradation externally, I would think.  The first you may know about the cable failing is it catching fire inside the wall, and maybe smouldering slowly, unseen, for hours before it breaks out into flames, some time after the cable has been used. 

 

I promise you that the very last thing I'm trying to do is be unhelpful.  I have a fairly high tolerance for risk and would not take the time to post these warnings if it wasn't something that would keep me awake at night (it is).